so good morning everyone we’re now … no but you me
and the strategic Persian planning that committee would like to
thank our guests in the …
the whole for being in the room for being here
… and … as a quick aside thank you all
for being an … there this morning as we made
our presentation at the chamber … I would ask …
… if there are any issues any disclosures of pecuniary
councillor Turner
I thank you worship … with respect to budget process
a and like to declare these that they’re not specific
items that we’ve identified in here but … my wife
is … employee at child reach which received some of
the community grant funding and so on … if there’s
a section on that then I would declare pecuniary interest
as well any funding associated with Middlesex London health unit
is Middlesex London health unit my employer so at the
appropriate times thank you any other
comments disclosures
see none I am now excuse me customer
thank you and through the chair I just wanted to
say when we get to a similar to councillor Turner
it’s not a matter that strictly before us and the
amendments block when it comes time for the operating budget
any funds that are related to membership in the national
golf course owners association I’m gonna have to declare an
interest on that and my father’s the revenue manager for
the national golf course owners association
do you golf for consumer
only when I’m not in budget meetings
let’s hope we get there soon cancer remember
BankAmerica anything pertaining to … subsidies for childcare small way
phone operates a choker for of rooms with a clear
conflict on
thank you so noted that counts Hawkins
while we’re at it I’d like to declare a pecuniary
interest if we … refer to anything regarding union one
oh seven employees with the city of London is my
son works for the city of London
so noted any other declarations
let’s see none thank you all for that time now
going to turn the agenda over I know we haven’t
… discuss consent … that will come up in just
a moment I can turn the meeting over to councillor
Morgan as we of the earlier supported thinking
thank your worship and … thank you colleagues for …
being here today
I would like to make a suggestion and for those
who experience … the budget process in previous years …
the agenda as outlined in a way that deals with
the the amendments and statutory obligations to bring those amendments
to execution … and so … we don’t always do
the budget quite in the order that it appears on
the table … to make that a little bit easier
… on the that the paper in front of you
I’m I’m providing a suggested order of operations that we
can proceed through the meeting and so that it’s very
clear the order that we would be going through …
it involves a few changes to the agenda today that
assuming there’s no objections to … we’re gonna proceed that
way … what I want to do and the change
will make is we’re gonna start with … an overview
of the budget and have the staff presentation right off
the bat … there’s a number of important key components
of that staff presentation that … our treasure has alluded
to in previous meetings and I think we wanna hear
before we even get into to discussing any components of
the budget … at that point I will proceed into
… receiving at the consent items … so with the
three point one first then move to two point one
at that point we’re going to deal with the items
for direction in the following order … basically we’re going
to deal with all of the things that involve decisions
on the amendments that are before us within the draft
people budget that includes four point one which is a
review of operating budget amendments four point two which is
a review of the capital budget amendments four point nine
which is the water review of the capital budget amendments
are no operating budget amendments for the … the water
budget then four point one four which is the …
capital budget amendments for the water and treatment again there
are no operating budget amendments for those everything that comes
after that four point three four point four five six
seven eight … at ten eleven twelve thirteen fifteen sixteen
seventeen eighteen as you can see on the sheet for
you those are all basically statutory motions that execute the
decisions that we make …
once we passed all the budget amendments and made any
other changes to the operator capital budget so we want
to make those are kind of the the motion so
we have to do with the end of the meeting
no matter what we decide on the level of those
budget so I propose dealing with all those at the
end so we can keep it very clean and our
staff can answer all the all of the numbers as
well our treasury will outline to you … in that
we do have some tools available for councillors today that
will assist them in the decision making on this …
we do have the ability in real time to …
to show and calculate changes to the tax rate based
on … either passing or not passing the budget amendments
that are before us and with just a little bit
of time if there are other amendments to come forward
we can show the impacts of those may have …
on the tax rate … I think that’s an important
tool that will have so people can see the consequences
of the decisions that are being contemplated today and hopefully
will assist in the debate and if there’s any more
detail … needed on that after the treasures presentation …
you can certainly ask if you need any clarification but
it’s basically … a spreadsheet they can be displayed …
before you on screen that shows … basically where we
are sitting based on the decisions were contemplating if you
want something shown you could certainly asset as part of
the budget debate particularly the amendments where it’s really easy
to turn them on and off I’m showing the impacts
… with that are there any objections to the kind
of order of operations as I’d like to proceed
… okay and I think everybody has this sheep with
some of the college papers I hope some of our
friends in the media got some to our staff have
them so you can kind of follow along with where
we are … again if there’s any question of where
we are just just ask and we can certainly make
that available
so with that I will start with three point one
which is the budget overview and turn it over to
our treasure and her team … starting off before she
even speaks by thanking her and her team for all
the work that goes into getting us to this point
today where we start to deliberate to make decisions on
the budget we pre sheet all the work that you’ve
done and certainly I in this role as budget you’re
have appreciated all the time the example spend … with
myself to make sure that we schedule a a course
of a path today that hopefully will allow council make
the decisions that it needs to make on the budget
thank you done through the chair so I just a
couple of opening comments before it began and and actually
calmer is gonna be doing the presentation today so I
think one of the key focus on this is our
first the end of the the last update of are
multi year budget so this process began in … twenty
fifteen and … essentially in twenty sixteen the multi year
budget was approved with a for your plan so with
each annual updated we have focused only on amendments and
changes that were required because of those three categories that
we have spoken which is primarily legislative change controversies and
or on council direction so today’s … focus specifically doesn’t
have a lot of items because there haven’t been a
lot of amendments that have been submitted … fortunately because
of the the work that the staff had done in
civic administration we were able to table a budget that
was below what was originally approved and certainly well below
the original target at the two point nine so as
a result I think just one of the things to
remind everybody is that through that process we have continued
to work on the service review in and call will
have a couple sites in the presentation about the additional
million dollars that over and above whatever is approved today
that remains within our base that we still have to
report out on to find savings to quite to that
in September of this year so I think a lot
of the the focus I think now this is the
tail end of this but can currently we are also
embarking on the strategic plan which was set the stage
for the next for your budget so some of the
decisions today may set the stage for house them about
may play out in the future as well in terms
of what council’s priorities may follow through into the next
plan so just to set the stage for that so
at this time I’d like to turn over to Kyle
Marial give a bit of an overview in terms of
where we are today and some of the amendments that
send you information that council had requested to add to
our last tabling of the budget cell
it over to Kyle thank you
thanks very much in a lease and I will try
to be quite brief with this but … we did
want to provide some additional contacts on … some the
request that came up at budget tabling … as well
as a few other matters that have … come up
since then
so I’ll start with providing … a brief recap of
where we are we’re we’re starting the day today …
I’ll get into some of those other budget matters …
specifically subsidized transit for seniors … further break down a
budget amendment number one I’ll talk a little bit about
… tax levy increases by property class … I’ll talk
about assessment growth … little more on how we compare
to other municipalities and very very briefly on the recommended
budget review approach but the chair is already kind of
walk you through that
so starting with a recap of where we are today
starting the day off … as a reminder there are
a total of twelve budget amendments in your budget Sir
locks … seven operating budget amendments and five capital budget
of the operating budget amendments three our budget reductions three
our budget increases and one does not have any impact
on the tax levy
with respect to the capital budget amendments all of them
can be accommodated within the capital plan with no impact
on the tax levy
I see you will see in this slide ad budget
tabling … but just as a reminder refresher … we
started the twenty nineteen budget process … looking at two
point eight percent average annual tax levy increase from rates
… resulting in an impact that average impact of seventy
seven dollars to the average repair
as a result of the budget amendments that are before
you today … we are now looking at a revised
average annual increase of two point seven percent from rates
… meaning an average residential impact of seventy four dollars
to the average repair
I Salih saluted to I just wanted to … remind
committee of the service for you target that is already
built into the twenty sixteen to nineteen approved the budget
so that was a four million dollar target … three
million of which has been achieved to date with the
remaining twenty nineteen target of one million dollars still outstanding
and that will be identified and reported to you council
… in September of this year
to spend some time talking about some of the other
budget matters that have come up since tabling soul as
directed by council on December eighteenth a budget amendment has
been prepared to re instate discounted seniors bus tickets a
so this is a direction through the civic works committee
… this we budget amendment number thirteen and all you
should have a copy in front of you
… because this is a reinstatement of a previous program
… we are recommending that this if approved to be
funded through tax levy on a permanent basis
and if you approve this budget amendment … both the
twenty nineteen and the for your average tax levy increase
would increase from two point seven percent to two point
eight percent
… I budget tabling committee also requested a bit of
a further breakdown on budget amendment number one so this
is the revenue budget adjustments … and more specifically in
relation to … the amounts within that budget amendment they’re
related to experience or budget right sizing … versus any
amounts in that budget amendment relating to new or increased
fees and twenty nineteen so as the chart on the
screen indicates … only the last piece of that budget
amendment relates to an increased fee in twenty nineteen so
that’s the … development services application fee component of that
budget amendment … and that was approved by council …
previously that … increased fee … through a an extensive
consultation process … including with the development community
… committee also requested a bit of a further breakdown
of what tax levy increases have been by property class
… over this budget cycle so … the first line
on the table … shows what the budget is a
bit increases been … so far this multi year budget
the second component of the table shows what the …
tax levy increases have bene by property class after the
approval of tax policy but excluding the education tax component
and finally the third section of that table shows …
the impact five property class after tax load that tax
policy approval but including the impact of education taxes as
well so I guess the message here is that there
are still … important decisions to be made through the
tax policy setting process that will ultimately impact what the
increase is that … particular property owner will experience
we also wanted to spend some time talking about assessment
growth … it’s come up recently and we’ve had some
questions on it so we thought we’d spend a little
bit of time getting into that as well and I
want to provide an overview of assessment growth first what
it is … and I think the best way to
do that is with a finance flicks that … we
created a number of years ago and I think it
does a good job of explaining what that is so
… I will pull this video up
what is assessment growth by definition it is new taxes
from New and or expanded homes and or businesses to
pay for the services they receive
in order to better understand assessment growth you’ll need to
know what makes up the city’s tax
so let’s look at an example of a strictly residential
town and the taxes that each home pays based on
each homes assessed value when we add up all the
taxes paid for this town it totals one thousand dollars
this money is used to pay for the town services
during the year our hypothetical town has some changes
this house built in addition and this house was demolished
through new houses were also built taxes change accordingly
remember assessment growth is defined as new taxes from New
and or expanded homes and or businesses to pay for
the services they receive
when we had a call the taxes paid for this
town the next year it equals one thousand one hundred
in order to calculate assessment growth we take the total
tax for all the properties in our town and subtract
the original tax from the start of the year this
gives us a year over year growth of one hundred
dollars that’s ten percent
this is our assessment growths
you may be saying great extra cash
it is important to note that this is not new
money that the town can spend
let’s summarize when new homes are built or expanded in
the town existing municipal services must be extended
the ten percent new tax revenue generated by these homes
is used to fund the extension of the town’s operating
budget to provide the services
and that is what we mean by assessment growth
so I hope that video kind of provide a little
bit of context in terms of what assessment growth is
I’ll spend a bit of time now on our assessment
growth policy solo civic service areas boards and commissions that
occur growth related costs … to provide existing core services
to new growth areas are required to submit business cases
each year to the city treasurer
… the first available assessment growth funds are applied to
business cases that are approved by the city treasurer or
and in the event that assessment growth funding exceeds growth
costs in a particular budget year … the access assessment
growth funding is applied fifty percent to reducing authorized but
unissued dad on a one time basis and the remaining
fifty percent is allocated to the capital infrastructure gap reserve
fund on a one time basis
any event that growth costs exceed assessment growth funding available
in a given year … there is a prioritization process
that happens and the first priority goes to … any
flow through costs for business cases that were funded through
assessment growth in previous years so this would be if
there are any incremental amounts from previously approved assessment growth
the second priority goes to services that are aligned with
… the services supported through development charges
and finally we look at whether there are … any
implications or significant … service disruptions that would occur if
the service did not receive the growth funding that they
have requested
any unfunded business cases are then resubmitted for consideration in
the following year
in terms of twenty nineteen assessment growth I wanna start
by saying that the assessment growth allocation process is a
separate process side of the budget process … and actually
very timely discussion because just on Tuesday the corporate services
committee about received reports … outlining what the anticipated twenty
nineteen assessment growth revenue will be so it’s looking like
… one point nine six percent for twenty nineteen
and we are intending to bring forward the allocation of
that assessment growth revenue … to the strategic priorities and
policy committee on March fourth
I just to give you an idea though of where
we’re coming in for this year … we have as
I mentioned estimated Sussman growth revenue of one point nine
six … that equates to approximately a little over eleven
point three million dollars we also have … approximately one
point three five million dollars to carry forward from previous
years so this was site for business cases approved last
year that were one time in nature that funding becomes
available for us this year as well
… so that means you total assessment growth funding available
of approximately twelve point seven million
based on the business cases that have been submitted our
looking it estimated … twenty nineteen growth cost of approximately
ten point one million which means that we will have
access Sussman growth funding of approximately two point six million
I spent a couple minutes on … further looking at
how London compares to other municipalities so … this graph
… show this at budget tabling thought it out for
what up there again but this is net municipal levy
per capita for Ontario municipalities greater than one hundred thousand
… I think … it demonstrates that London compares favorably
to other municipalities large municipalities our coming in definitely below
the average of … one thousand five hundred eighteen
this is also included in the budget tabling presentation but
this is … property taxes as a percentage of income
again for Ontario municipalities greater than one hundred thousand and
once again London compares favorably … well below the average
for … similar means spent municipalities across the province
I budget tabling committee requested … a little further information
in terms of … how wanting compares on a property
class by property class basis and we’re fortunate that …
BME consulting … includes a comparison of relative property taxes
for twelve different property classes in their annual benchmarking studies
so … as an example for residential they look at
… single family detached bungalows two stories senior executive homes
… getting quite granular and the the take a sample
of properties matching the criteria for each of those property
classes … however due to small sample sizes … we
believe that looking at average residential property taxes as a
whole is viewed as the most representative for the entire
city … so based on that
… this is what average residential property taxes look like
… so essentially total residential taxes divided by total number
of residential properties I will point out that this also
includes education taxes as well so … once again money
compares very favorably third lowest among … municipalities greater than
one hundred thousand and … exactly thousand dollars less than
the average per year further these missed out
unfortunately … for commercial properties BMA does not provide average
commercial taxes so our were forced to look at specifically
a prime location commercial office space and this graph shows
property taxes per square foot of gross leasable area so
once again money compares quite favorably to other Ontario municipalities
… at two dollars and ninety two cents per square
foot verses the provincial average of three dollars and fifty
five cents
and similarly for industrial … BMA does not provide an
average residential taxes but we can look at standard what
they consider standard industrial property under a hundred twenty five
thousand square feet … newer construction flexible design
again this is property taxes per square foot of floor
area and once again Linus third lowest at a dollar
forty five per square foot versus two dollars and eleven
cents on average
I will spend a lot of time on this I
think the … chairs cover this quite well but …
certainly will be … using our tax levy model quite
extensively to provide real time updates on where … the
tax levy sits based on this is you make so
is everything I have thank you
thank you for that and the … the side these
give the end was the recommended approach to the budget
… that’s actually what I outlined when I said we’re
gonna do things in a slightly different order so …
so that’s that’s where that’s where that’s why you have
the the the budget helper she before you to let
you know where we stand in the budget process
… there any questions of our staff on that presentation
that calling sat
okay see none I need a mover and a seconder
to receive the staff presentation councillor Turner councillor Hopkins
put that up on the screen just flip back to
your voting spring
closing the vote the motion carries 15 to 0
the next piece in the agenda is a review of
… the annual budget … update public engagement so as
you know we had a public participation meeting … last
week that
councillors heard from a we also had a wide range
of other engage in activities related to the budget process
and that report … you have … as attached to
the … and agenda it was circulated earlier … is
running we’re expecting some staff comment on the public engage
a reporter knows just here for colleagues to your for
calling Sir presentation
okay so are there any questions on the … public
engagement piece that colleagues might have
as seeing none I actually … have a comment on
the public engagement piece … for colleagues … as the
chair … as I mentioned this is the public engagement
portion that are related to … all the agent that
wasn’t the PPM last week at the PPM although that
meeting … and the directions at that meeting will go
to council … next week … one of the directions
that I was given as budget chair from the committee
still needs to be ratified by council was directed to
work with civic administration provincial federal officials in Merriam out
to determine any potential appropriate sources of financing for the
twenty nineteen budget request
in anticipation of colleagues wanting to actually debate the budget
today … although it’s not on the agenda because as
and ratified by council I would certainly if colleagues would
like to hear the information that I’ve gathered on that
I would be prepared to share it with you today
in advance of the discussion of the operating budget …
so I’ll leave it with colleagues and with that they
would like that today or whether they would like to
wait since the that direction technically hasn’t ratified by council
so would anybody like to hear that today are there
any objections to hearing what I’ve done today if there
objections and we can actually do a financial
any objections to the update I I’m actually move from
the chair that and give the update … so I’ll
give that the chair temporarily back to
older it’ll give the update on what I found on
other objections councillor Turner
Sir wish no objection just a refusal F. I might
… for the same reasons before
so noted in the comments because mark
thank you colleagues up based on the direction last week
… I I certainly didn’t need … to wait for
council approval to do my own work is councillor I
know staff tends to wait … luckily they actually had
all the information prepared … that we would want …
in preparation for the public participation meeting as it was
something in the media and so … so that was
really wasn’t any work on staff party this but I
will ask them to comment at certain portions in …
this … verbal report that’ll make the first piece was
asking … to work with civic administration provincial federal officials
… I engage with multiple stakeholders including our staff …
including … the director exactly director of merry mount and
reached out to both of the the member of parliament
member financial parliament for … the areas that we’re amount
is represented within … into discussions about I also aware
of their own and reach to provincial federal governments which
they have confirmed that I could share today … the
first with the federal government through … member parliament your
friends goddesses office and they have not with the exact
director to review … possible funding sources for some of
the refugee programs … and are supporting them in and
out of cycle application through possible federal programs … …
for some support for their Jeff G. programs there’s no
guarantees in that process … we have no role is
in his apology in participating that process but they are
working directly with Merion out on attempting to support some
of those programs that fall under federal jurisdiction at the
provincial level merry not confirm with me that there engage
with the province led to no significant … funding potential
for them … in the short term … through speaking
with the local member of parliament … that address to
parliament … … turns Cunningham who is a member of
the opposition I he also is stood by saying I
would be happy to help the Max’s any provincial programs
that come available in his role as the member of
parliament … supporting … agencies and organizations in his writing
… so for now it seems like there’s only pursued
happening at the river … federal level and merry notice
engage with them so
from the US apology as is likely appropriate
… determine any potential appropriate source of financing on the
two thousand nineteen but request the treasure and I met
on this to go over what possible potential appropriate sources
of financing that would be for … the budget request
I know miss Livingston could probably provide some context because
I know one of things we mention is the community
graduate program but I think I’ll let the treasure speak
in her own words on the appropriate sources of financing
because she is the authority on that so if I
can through the chair pass it over to her for
this portion of the opting
through the chair and with respect to the funding sources
for this it is a one as a two year
one time initiatives … certainly the most appropriate source from
for all community grants that are requested we would identify
as the community granting process which is Levinson can provide
a little bit more information … failing that stores the
the other alternative is that there is that a reserve
fund available to council that sound the community investment reserve
fund which is our reserve fund that was approved in
a few years ago that is specific with respect to
one time initiatives and or projects that have a temporary
source of financing not to exceed for four years so
it it was that reserve fund that was established to
support tech council that wish to provide … initiatives to
the community … failing other funding sources not being available
so that would certainly be the the secondary choice and
should the community granting process not go through … the
… balance on that as at the end of the
years approximately eight hundred thousand dollars
if I could get to you … if I don’t
of misleading sinking outlined the timing on the committee granted
process of colleagues are aware when that actually occurs
through the chair of the there are two streams that
are open this year for the London community grants program
one is for multi year funding and the second is
for the innovation or capital funding both will be open
in may
and further to that I had a discussion with executive
director about … their foundation and how their supported for
through the foundation that … I’ve been told that I
can share today … does have a foundation available to
them … it has assets when I look in this
here website of about sixteen point four million dollars …
in both short and long term assets … they use
their … … this is what has been communicated to
me by the merry mount exact director the user foundation
as essentially a document and so there is some …
hesitancy in wanting to draw down to … the base
capital on that and down and because they basically …
are using money basically the interest that is made each
year to to help provide transfers the organizations so I
raise that because I know came up in the public
discussion about the potential of training the foundation and I
engage with them on that I assume the council would
be fine that information valuable and asked if I could
sure that as well … I would be able to
answer a lot of questions about the foundation and how
they work they have a separate board … but that
is that the core piece on why there was hesitancy
for them to use their foundation is they didn’t want
to train the capital because it is functioning … are
meant to function like an indictment where they take money
… basically off the top and transferred to to merry
no I with that I don’t have a lot of
other … detail … I hope that that satisfies council’s
… enquiring on this and I was happy to work
councillor rolling
thank you mayor … being that councillor Morgan has …
brought that in the discussion I just like to add
a couple of a couple of things … regarding their

foundation funding … they’ve drawn down on the capital that
funding for the past four years … so I’d like
to ask … ms Livingston … did they … participate
in the twenty eighteen … community … granting process
through the chair sorry from
thank you through the chair … yes in twenty eighteen
they participated in the innovation stream of the twenty eighteen
our London community grants program and were awarded a thirteen
thousand four hundred dollars I’d the request was thirteen thousand
four hundred and fifty dollars eyes so that was for
the twenty eighteen and I believe that is the only
time they have participated in the learning committee grants program
they did not apply for multi year funding earlier in
the cycle
any other questions for … you to councillor Morgan or
excuse me councillor Cassidy
thank you mistranslated to councillor Morgan
in your discussions with the executive director I wonder if
… he indicated why … paramount had not made another
request through the community granting program
well as Mr Nixon just mentioned there there was a
request last year through the the community granting program …
I think they were they were see thirteen point four
thousand dollars this year’s committee granting program hasn’t begun yet
it might maybe the slings and correct me if I’m
through the chair I know you are correct I I
just want to be really clear that what that means
is they did not apply for twenty nineteen finding through
the granting program last year so they apply so it’s
always one cycle behind so they applied for the twenty
eighteen funding received thirteen thousand four hundred dollars they did
not apply for twenty nineteen funding
so I do not have the answer to why they
wouldn’t apply to the twenty nineteen … funding your
any other comments questions
because remember
if we were to go ahead with the granting of
this … funding on this one time basis for two
years does this open us up to other similar organizations
… coming to us in it in affects setting a
is that that’s question directed to staff present
please go ahead
I is through the chair I would suggest that it
is precedent setting
councillor van Holst
thank you madam Mister chair and … three to our
staff to just remind us how much is available through
the community granting process
through the chair of for the multi year stream there
is two point three million each year of that stream
and for the innovation and capital stream there is five
hundred thousand each year
councillor Cassidy
thank you again Mr mayor … and … three thank
you to councillor van Meerbergen for his question because it
to it brought another question to mind … if it
I’m wondering through you Mister mayor to staff if the
… high amount of attention and media attention that this
has has brought about I’m wondering if it already has
brought other agencies forward … looking to take the same
process to get funding rather than going through community grants
through the chair I have not received any formal request
however I have heard informally that others may be interested
in accessing additional funds this way
thank you any other comments questions
and all the furniture back to customer thank you
so colleagues at that was actually so far part of
the …
public engage a report you can see that the …
the motion that I have not asked for mover seconder
on there actually has a second part to receive the
verbal update … … from myself and the managing director
of corporate services city treasures chief financial officer with respect
to the direction arising from the January seventeenth public participation
meeting related to the merry not children’s funding request a
be received for information so that is also part of
the direction that I’ll be seeking … a mover and
a seconder on at this time
councillor Cassidy
I will move those sites those recommendations and a seconder
councillor Lewis any discussion on this item
continental’s thank you
Mr budget chair
question through you to our staff is also seems to
me that … earlier last term we set up a
an opportunity for non non profits to Boral money from
the city had no interest was that a something that
might have been considered by my by merry mon may
mount as a
as a way to get a through their … difficult
I know as far as I know that was not
something that was discussed with paramount … or our staff
… I think we did that on a on a
to be done to that on a one time basis
but I see you nodding from our staff so that
would be something that would be have to be done
on a one time basis again
for the discussion at and I will notes that this
is a to be received if people are looking to
take action on this item certainly there are components and
points in the budget process where you could try to
do so you don’t necessarily have to take action on
this particular item at this moment in time we simply
receiving the reports next that we will be moving into
the operating budget amendments … for council where … where
we can do that so we have a mover and
a seconder for receiving … both the presentation of staff
and the … operable update from myself and our staff
any other discussion on that
yes I’ve got a mover seconder I’m good got
no discussion okay will open up for voting on
closing the vote the motion carries fourteen to zero with
one recuse
one other thing I wanted to add for proceed with
… the agenda just from the chair is … I
received some enquires about the length of time that the
meeting would take today … my intention was that we
would go to … least schedule until at least four
I I only say for as a primary time frame
for ending because I know a couple of colleagues might
have to leave after that point I deliver all wrapped
up well before then … we also have another day
in reserve … after that … however … there’s nothing
stopping us from continuing the meeting so I think I
will just check in later in the day on …
on the timing and how the meeting is going but
I wanted to colleagues to know that my intent was
to proceed for a good portion of the day try
to get this done in one day if we can
do that so with that … we get into the
meat of the meeting … we’re on to items for
direction and as I indicated we’re going to proceed with
… the operating budget amendments first that section four point
one when you look to your … regular agenda you’ll
see that the business cases are outlined there including the
added … business case number thirteen … on new direction
… subsidize transfer seniors I know for sure colleagues would
like to discuss at least case number to a minimum
wage increase case number seven the children’s museum which …
needs a direction from council and case number thirteen …
which we need to make a decision on … other
others so item ten on dealing with those separately …
I intend on passing them as a group of the
other ones as a group if if no one objects
doing that other others that colleagues would like to remove
so we can get sick I’m just looking to see
if you’d like to deal with either case one three
four five or six separately or whether we can deal
with them together for reference those are the revenue drivers
changes that was what was outlined with some more detail
… by our staff and they said these are the
components that are updates to the budget these are the
considering fees number three as a confidential matter are related
to …
relations and plan to go she Haitians
number four is the … bicycle lane maintenance impact number
five is the cost driver … an additional resources for
land ambulance resources number six is the safeguard program for
the London police service is what I would like to
deal with those separately or can we deal with all
of those as a group
… in case you’re referring to the original agenda on
case number for the net impact of the bicycle lane
maintenance was actually listed as a revenue that is not
the case is a cost … it is correct on
the agenda as as as a cost impact rather than
revenue impact
I’m just gonna colleagues a second
councillor van Meerbergen
case number four with boys Glen maintenance is a correct
to assume that most of this is for winter
winter clearing for bike paths
through the chair at side twelve months worth of maintenance
so it’s … it’s certainly … of a little over
half … winter maintenance but it also includes summer maintenance
such as … made sure of the …
… road conditions are smaller than potholes are filled appropriately
in accordance with the provincial minute maintenance standards
so this is … man mandated directly by the province
in terms of a higher standard than the report providing
before it on and if that’s the case
can you tell us if we absolutely have to follow
the maintenance standards … are prescribed in the municipal act
and … they get reviewed on a provincial wide basis
and … the maintenance of … bicycle facilities was added
to them and resulting in this … business case
the the corporation has traditionally followed the minimum maintenance standards
it’s seen as a …
… good to good to have a baseline of for
customer service and also provides a reasonable defense fund with
respect to liability and … with you know associations with
… claims and road safety so that is traditionally been
the … the reader the rationale for fall in the
of made provincial maintenance standards …
council at its private of
… deviate from not and … that would be …
involved discussion
so would this be a higher standard than what would
be used for the main roadway
the of
the requirements for the cycling facilities are typically linked to
the … the class of road … so it’s not
a higher standard than the monarchy the general purpose lanes
… but it does it does very and it typically
follows the protocols with respect to the the class of
the roadway as dictated by the … motor vehicle volumes
and the speed limit
thank you very much
which I feel that separately are good if you if
you can call four and six okay so
okay so that leaves us with sorry go ahead councillor
Hopkins sorry to interrupt … sicher but could use a
just review the cases that we are going to be
putting forward to approve the yes I’m just gonna do
that now … so what I’m asking for where we
are … I let council remember gonna ask questions open
that would resolve that we could do them as a
group … that’s not the case so I’m really just
at this time looking for things that colleagues would like
debated separately in the operating budget amendments right now what
we have left as a group is case number one
case number three and case number five everything else right
now we’re gonna deal with separately so if any anybody
wants to deal with one of those three separately we
I just to inform the the … the clerk that
… case number two I know we’re pulling that out
that I will be weak you seem like myself …
just in terms of caution my son does … work
for the city of London with … local union one
oh seven
… thank you on that and … I’ll let you
know when we deal with case number two … I
I’ve asked our staff to be prepared to give some
general direction on … who is included in impacted by
that decision so if colleagues need that at the time
that we debate that … certainly we will have that
information available in some general terms about the types of
employees that are impacted by that decision making so that
you can decide whether you have a conflicts of button
so noted councillor Hopkins so does that mean we can
deal with one three and five
together councillor helmer
thank you and I appreciate the chair trying to speed
things along
we went up with everything all the by that …
but … my question I just a question what five
depends I guess on the answer there need to be
separated or not but this is been area land ambulance
or is he a lot of growth you know we’ve
had … folks in your to talk to us about
land in the on the call volume growth is very
significant I think it’s very appropriate as and so did
the business case where have assessment roll this covering some
of the costs that are attributable to the growth but
… even compared to what we had in the original
multi year budget which was a pretty significant growth rate
now we have … additional pressures so I I’m thinking
ahead and not just to two thousand nineteen but future
years are we expecting this kind of trend to continue
enters a growth and land ambulance and do you think
that the strategy of about getting some to assess our
growth and some in the base budget is going to
be sustainable in the next multi about budget
through the chair so I’m certainly this is been an
area that we have seen significant growth and so the
city of London has the agreement with … the EMS
services so they deliver that there’s service manager and on
behalf of Middlesex as well as the city of London
certainly based on some of the discussions that we have
had with them in terms of conversations of what to
expect we don’t have any definitive forecast going into the
next four years but certainly we are hearing that those
pressures will continue … this one the new ambulances to
deal with the call volume was something that was not
on was not foreseen in the original multi year budget
so it’s something that I think at council may wish
to hear directly from EMS services at a future meeting
to talk about that and to better understand what the
pressures are that they’re seen and and I know they
have some strategic planning that they’ve done as well and
I think they may have some valuable information to share
of council so they can appreciate what the challenges are
that’ll be coming so I was the first question I
think the second question with respect to it assessment growth
this is actually the first time that we have utilized
assessment growth to fund this in this case … the
growth that the additional land ambulance itself is an appropriate
growth cost bit particularly as a result of the call
volumes so it was very appropriate in this case to
to do that … so it was something we looked
at as as trying to manage the budget and certainly
was a our very valid case whether at the remainder
the reason wasn’t all with respect to gross is because
there is other challenge changes that are in the budget
the weren’t fully attributable to the land ambulance itself so
therefore we felt it was appropriate to only charge the
growth portion as as per the policy so if there’s
an opportunity to do that in the future depending on
what the costs in the business case is a come
forward are it’s something we could look at and certainly
depending on how much the assessment growth is might be
the … I mitigating factors to whether or not it’ll
be fully funded through that portion but it is something
we would look at and does certainly depend on water
Grove productions and what we realized in the future as
to whether that can be accommodated
just briefly and I I think it’s a good idea
to have a discussion with the a strictly about the
longer term and I don’t want to do that now
a colleagues or call the
the last term of council I was appointed to the
animal health task force and I think the first name
on how to tie health task force for a long
time I just want to pass on to colleagues that
it turns out that the municipalities touch a lot of
health care services in a lot of health services and
up impacting us in a in a budgetary way and
this is something that municipalities all over the province of
Ontario are struggling with you know whether it’s the time
it takes to turn around an ambulance at a hospital
to get someone into the hospital and and passed often
make that transition other kind of demands are seeing is
people are aging and the calls for service are going
out … and they the sectors certainly trying to innovate
you know I don’t spend a lot of time talking
to what they’re doing things like committee para medicine trying
to provide … less expensive more effective interventions that don’t
require calling an ambulance and there’s a lot of changes
going on there but it is an area where there’s
a lot of pressure and I think from a financial
perspective … it’s gonna be a it’s gonna be nine
when pressure is the society is aging as a people
in London are raging and they’ve calling amounts is more
often that’s also as we all know you know on
the support when you’re dealing with a folks are living
on the street they don’t have appropriate supports there’s a
lot of EM us contacts with with a number of
individuals a rebel rebel and you know these all fall
down on to municipal budgets one way or the other
that’s why England of setting up the south task forces
to look at how can we work better with the
the province and and other folks are giving health care
and to try and solve some of those issues so
I do think it’s gonna be one that’s gonna be
tough for us in the multi year budget and I
think it between now and then having the MSN that
took me practice services would be a good idea
councillor Turner
thank you a customer in of with respect to this
I was gonna wait till we got to the general
comments about it but seems apropos now … when the
challenge is going to be that are assessment gross I
think we just saw was looking around two percent …
our base … it budgeting committee increases … on on
the levee around two point seven percent to as of
proposed right now … but two point seven percent is
just maintenance of status quo … based on operating cost
increases and doesn’t increasing out of service so really in
order to add ambulances to the roads were probably going
to need to look towards has been cross however
a call volume rates increased by about seven percent per
year and will continue to do so … Intel we
see that the crest of the boomers … going through
the health care system and not being around anymore Sir
yes …
and so then we’ll see a decrease in in the
demands on surfs … but it that’s for C. able
for next twenty twenty five years seven percent increase a
and two percent and we’re at at a pretty high
level of assessment gross we normally expect to see that
one point two percent so there’s this massive disparity between
the two … councillor helmer talked a little bit about
… … innovative programs such as community paramedics and those
are really essential but there are also going to take
investment in order for us to get there so we
may have to spend before we can start to see
some some decreases in the pressures around Austin offloads around
appropriate triage and disposition of patients … but we’re also
seen pressures and vulnerable populations to that are growing …
in addition to our our age demographic related pressures NEMS
so I agree with councillor helmer would be really important
to have EMS present … to … present to us
and give us a sense of what the strategies are
going forward but I think it’s really incumbent on us
as well to trying to figure out
how do we budget for that
… in recognizing that it’s it’s going to be a
significant challenge
because that
basically so
a 5.8 percent gap
between assessment growth and call volume increases

nice barbarian masses it has an elasticity and putting them
in on some road and the call volume will increase
in the number of calls that that ambulance does will
increase over time
to breaking point though and … Middlesex London EMS has
a very high but the call unit our utilization and
so as it stands right now they are … pretty
stretched and this will help but we have to keep
our eye on this and I think it’ll be a
really important … pieces we budget for next year
great so I’m still looking to see if anybody has
a rejection dealing with a case number one three and
five together
no okay well to those are significant revenues … one
of the cost … if anybody see the impacts those
particular cases the pretty clear in the report but we
can certainly use our budget tool otherwise I would look
for a mover and a seconder for case number one
three and five councillor helmer seconded by councillor Cassidy any
discussion or comments on those three particular cases
I will make one comment on case number one I
want to thank our staff for the additional detail I
know I requested at a previous meeting on the breakdown
between … what is … … better reflected … budget
estimations and what is additional costs you can see that
a lot of it is reflecting some trends of of
taking in a little more revenue than maybe we were
budgeting for … I think that it’s really great that
we’re we’re tightening that up a little bit and appreciated
it also provides some savings to to taxpayers as well
on the front and it would have been in a
surplus to the other end but it it it was
reflected in the budget process so thank you for that
with that after no other comments I will open to
vote on cases one three and five
closing the vote the motion carries 15 to 0
are the next case that was pulled in order is
case number two … this is the call that change
regulation cancellation of planned two thousand nineteen minimum wage increase
again I’ve asked our staff to prepare some information if
necessary for colleagues on … the types of you some
place that might impact in case … those of us
who have it families may work or any sort of
complex you’ll you’ll have a clear indication on where they
are if you require
if that’s the case so this case … … is
a production … I could look for a mover and
a seconder and then we can debate it
moved by councillor Lehman second by councillor van Meerbergen a
discussion on this particular business case
cancer Kayabaga
three chair … I’d like to ask staff how much
… it would cost to maintain the the minimum wage
… a fifteen dollars an hour for contract workers and
see what did
at what cost is to head
I think it’s a I mean just confirm the cost
the business cases as five hundred and twenty one thousand
yes it is $521000
I’m I am also like to ask
would this be only for twenty nineteen … or it
would be maintained and the multi year budget as well
our treasure
through the chair so if council were to vote to
include this when this increase would be implemented it would
allow for the move up to fifteen dollars an hour
as a minimum wage so when that budget is set
it will then because it’s an ongoing operating expense and
it’s been added to the tax something it’s a permanent
increase that will then flow through to future years
our three chair on I’d like to move a motion
that the funding identified and business case number to be
maintained in order to provide a minimum wage of fifteen
dollars an hour for the city of London workers
… on that … because the … the business case
it has been moved in before us is to actually
make the reduction which would impact the wages … by
defeating the business case … my understanding is that that
would have the same effect as funding it if we
require subsequent motion to allocate that budget I think we
would do so after this particular business case was defeated
I will confirm whether our staff need to separate motion
after so that we know … but my understanding of
the order of operations we need defeat the business case
first because this is a contrary … motion to that
and then we can proceed with other directions can you
just confirm that you would require a direction if the
business case was defeated to maintain the minimum wage or
because it was already budgeted in a previous year that
that would actually occur if the business case was defeated
through the chair yes said currently that is what is
in the existing budget that was approved at last year’s
part of the multi year so if it was defeated
the funds would be in there to do that …
it wouldn’t hurt to have a direction to pursue that
since that is that noted legislative but the money for
the budget would be there … should be defeated
so the order of operations here is vote on the
business case … if the business case is defeated you
could provide that additional direction to staff on how to
utilize that money and confirm … that direction so what
we will do is … we will continue debating the
business case … again …
the passenger to feeding of this case councillor Salih and
then holder
okay bye I should make sure you’re at or if
you’re finished with comments but you can go ahead if
you had something else you wanted comment on I was
simply getting answered your question first so I don’t know
if you want to continue the debate first before I
go to others
I can also look back to after a couple of
the speakers which I’ll do our go ahead cancer sorry
I think you up but you chair … it you
know I’m kind of support of the direction to councillor
… is heading in … … at this time what
I’ll do is I’ll vote against this current motion on
the floor and see my comments up for later on
if need be
I thank you chair so just to be clear what
it means if we vote yes than the planned increase
to fifteen dollars an hour is canceled approval know that
it can be redressed … through … through a subsequent
discussion motion
yes what is this is an amendment … that will
… cancelled the actions in a previous budget and free
up … the funds … so if you vote yes
to this change in this business case you will be
cancelling that previous direction and and the minimum wage increase
if you vote no the budget I don’t be defeated
… and there would be funds available in the budget
or you know we don’t have to collect the funds
but we could take another direction on that particular matter
given it would be a change from previous years
councillor van Holst
thank you Mr Burch chair question through you to to
our staff the
of course is the province told us what the minimum
it was at $15 we would have to comply
is there
what what else is involved in us increasing that the
ana on our own initiative for for employees
are there in labor negotiations that that this has to
go through
Mr bridge perhaps I through the chair … interest to
being helpful … this is there’s approximate three intern fifty
employees it impacted by this and is from our casual
pool not from our unionized … employee groups just hope
that cell phones discussion
the answer is no doesn’t involve denies groups okay thank
you are all our casual employees
the the minimum wage
through the chair they’re not all paid dot minimum wage
summer paid about fifteen dollars or fourteen dollars an hour
further debate on this one councillor squire councillor Lewis
cancer Kayabaga I’m not I’m going supports … this …
what’s currently here I think what we might be entering
into the process of trying to to re write what
the province is done in terms of of the minimum
wage and … if we start saying look we don’t
like something that the province did in terms of minimum
wage or something else we’re gonna now step in his
municipal government in and change that by providing to people
what is not otherwise occupied it by the provincial government
and I think that’s a really slippery slope to start
going on … we were not the ones who decided
to minimum wage this windfall I suppose is a result
of an action of the provincial government and … if
we start stepping in and saying well we don’t really
like what the provincial governments done here in terms of
minimum wage so we want to correct it for our
staff … we’re also putting ourselves in in a situation
of competing against the private sector … in the city
of London in other words we would be the imposition
of saying to people out in the community who are
paying the minimum wage and you can do better at
the city and I don’t think that’s a position that
we want to be and so I’m here to be
a municipal politician … it with the laws that the
province passes I and I’m willing it would whether I
like them or don’t like them … I’m gonna try
to put be in in compliance with that
councillor Lewis
thank you Mr chairman and I’m going to actually Eckel
councillor squire is comments … it does create a slippery
slope … I don’t like the rates that … the
province is legislated for individuals on or DSP and I
don’t like the rates that they’ve the legislative for people
Ontario works but I don’t think we can correct that
through municipal budget … through you Mister chair just a
quick question to staff I wanna make sure that …
revitalizing our our tools correctly … if we’d defeated …
the business case before us and … these funds went
on to be allocated … I believe we’re looking at
… then we would be at a two point eight
percent increase is that correct
Mr Murray could you update us on kind of where
we stand certainly and through the chair … that is
correct the twenty nineteen increase would … jump from two
point seven to two point eight and I would also
increase the for your average to two point eight percent
thank you that’s that’s the information I was looking for
… I have I’m just going to go to councillor
Hopkins personal have cancer Kayabaga next but she wants to
make … clarification
thank you Mister chair … does through the debate here
staff to respond saying that … this increased as not
affect unionized workers and therefore I will not be recusing
thank you councillor Kayabaga I saw another hand up over
here okay
thank you on I think that this is … a
good opportunity for the city of London to step up
and … support … contract workers school … make very
low incomes and a further here to serve my community
I think it’s important to … keep in mind that
London’s low income rate is between seventeen nineteen percent and
it’s low … it’s higher than Ontario in Canada …
and I think that … this is an opportunity for
us to to to be leaders and to show that
we care of our community and we care about the
the middle class people and people are working answer on
committee some … I will ask that … my colleagues
support keeping the minimum wage for contract workers were after
the students were often … single mothers were often …
in a low income families to continue to keep the
minimum wage of fifteen dollars an hour thank you
councillor Turner
thank you Mr presiding officer … I think this is
a really important discussion
the question of the minimum wage the minimum wage by
the way is the minimum wage that’s the least amount
we can possibly pay people
that’s not
how much we have to pay people is how much
we have to pay people at least
so a whether it’s is a discussion about the province
or how they set the minimum wage and it’s a
question of how we treat
the staff of the city of London both full time
and part time and casual in contract
and it’s a question of that recognizing what living wages
in the city
a living wage in London is actually set that about
fifteen dollars and sixty one cents an hour
so if we’re gonna have the conversation for the next
four years about housing affordability
an access to education and driving our economy
I think it’s probably pretty important that we set an
example ourselves
the strange part is we’d be pretty late to the
game in terms of living wage employers in London there
over twenty five employers within the city from small to
that pay a living wage including liberal Trudell western fair
district downtown London lips is digital king’s University College on
poverty research center king’s … line health sciences center neighborhood
legal services exhausts district
the list goes on this 25
just having registered to say we’re living wage employers
this is pretty small this is not a huge thing
really but it has a fairly significant impact
school costs are getting more expensive
the impact of this with roughly be about another thousand
dollars in the pockets of student seasonal worker to be
able to put towards their tuition and living costs through
the year … in terms of reaching housing affordability …
it that would probably be about two thousand to three
thousand dollars a year more in wages over the course
of a year for full time minimum wage employee with
the city
that makes a dent
especially when the … average housing … sorry the is
affordable housing threshold is about eight hundred and fifty dollars
a month
for a one bedroom apartment
think of how far an extra few thousand dollars a
year would go
the impact was is marginal
the impact to them is substantial
and I think it’s a really important thing that we
do we’d already allocated the funds we’ve already accepted that
that was a step that we were going to take
an hour or Klein back from that I don’t think
that’s appropriate so I would absolutely encourage you to defeat
the motion on the floor and I would certainly support
council Catalogus motion in the alternative
councillor van Meerbergen
thank you chair
clearly read this point to because the previous
government was planning to raise this to fifteen dollars an
hour the previous provincial government
and then they were us supplanted by new government which
… came to the conclusion that it was far too
much far too soon and that was agreed with by
large segments of our round of our community and our
… it was not long ago the minimum wage was
ten dollars and it quickly jumped fourteen to forty percent
hike … to go up to another fifteen what specially
when it’s not … … being forced upon us by
the provincial government frankly …
does a bit of an injustice to the end
here in the end payers the taxpayer
and the ability to pay in our community
it’s coming out of people’s pockets and we always have
to remember this this is this is what
always has to ground us is the fact that somebody
out there is paying this bill
it could be somebody on a fixed income pensioner
Rick Santorum many people out there haven’t had wages …
sorry wage hikes
in some time or if they have they been quite
so yes okay we’re talking about half a million dollars
but then there’s half a million dollars on top of
another half million dollars on top of another half million
dollars in terms of these increases so we can find
ways to be fair to the taxpayer
we should take it
and this is one that’s that’s fair to everyone so
I will definitely be supporting other maintaining of the fourteen
dollar … minimum wage of the city
councillor Hopkins us thank you Mister chair and … I’m
gonna think councillor Kayabaga for bringing this forward I won’t
be supporting case number two and one of the reasons
is … because of
the city setting an example I think this is an
opportunity for me it’s a small opportunity that we are
setting an example … here at at the city when
it comes to … the minimum wage we often talk
about housing affordability to me this is directly affects of
for housing affordability we know housing costs are going up
extremely faster than shopping creases and it’s that simple it’s
a setting an example so I will not be supporting
… the motion in front of this and … hopefully
… it will come back with a new motion
councillor Peloza
thank you Mr America Mister chair
and fellow councillors
I’m proud to serve here today as we see the
whims of our governments as they change and we can’t
force through proportion representation the closest we have here is
at council different voices coming to the table deciding what’s
best for our citizens
I know this is a contentious issue we hear it
this morning we were to stay in the city address
our mail raise the concerns of poverty and housing if
we want to prove that talk is more than talking
that we’re willing to take action we need to do
something about it as councillor Turner brought forward there’s the
minimum wage the fifteen dollar wage and actually a living
wage we wanna make sure that
we do something about one in four children in London
living in poverty and being at the highlight of that
of what our city is known for well let this
stand if not I ask you to defeat this and
support the fifteen dollar motion insuring our council employees are
city employees being lifeguards whatever we have problems filling that
people are proud to work for the city and to
help serve their father fellow Londoners
I’m gonna try to I I don’t have other people
on the on the list for a second or third
time I’m gonna try to focus on … anybody who
who hasn’t been on the list yet to so we
can hear for everybody as we continue on but we
will debate this as long as colleagues want but let’s
try to I don’t believe councillor van was your head
up you have not spoken to this yet okay …
at that we asked a question but I don’t know
if you waited I don’t there’s twenty four seven and
then councillor helmer I don’t think it’s
and yet and then I’ll go back to the people
the best be on a second time
thank you very much so
there’s a lot of ways to look at this one
… we’re looking at our our tax payers … there
also having on hard times and we’ve got a casual
workers I point out that not every wage needs to
be a living wage … I see that the arguments
for housing are coming up in poverty you’re coming up
but this is the
this is for five hundred thousand dollars … that we
could put into housing that we could put in into
poverty so no matter what what we which way we
go on this I’m sure we gonna be walking are
talking those kinds of things but what I would like
to see us to think about is what’s what’s mission
critical for us is it is is mission critical for
us to to be leaders in living wage I I
don’t think we need to be the leaders because councillor
Turner has given a list of other other groups that
are doing that … the mayor today pointed out that
there’s nine thousand jobs that need to be filled in
this in this city so … those people can could
be going to those jobs to look for that kind
of a living wage and … we’re our goal is
to have thirteen thousand more jobs filled that we’re looking
at three hundred and fifty casual jobs here … I
it may be
seen as somewhat disrespectful … to some of our our
taxpayers that
we’ll just give more than than is necessary this is
not this is not something we we have to do

particularly those ones who may own homes and be paying
taxes and have minimum wages themselves so we’re we’re in
this … in this argument where yes there’s more reasons
to go one way or the other … but I
point out there’s also the practical and financial arguments that
we have to look at … and … for a
city trying to establish a budget … this is the
certainly helps us this if we call it a win
win for all … and … and then there’s a
representational arguments as well what what do our citizens one
who were we representing we’re representing our taxpayers
what’s in what’s in their best interest so what I
would like to to see us to is this if
we’re gonna be leaders let’s let’s do that because it
gives us some advantage …
as opposed to what
I would say in this case it’s it’s a vanity
but why are we trying to be leaders … I
want us to be leaders in actually dealing directly with
the housing problems that’s probably our biggest issue here so
let’s leave as much money in the budget to to
deal with that right everything every dollar we spend in
one place we can’t spend in another place so I
think this is an opportunity where we can we can
go in the direction of the province have a minimum
wage like like everyone else and we’ll have another
quantum of of funds that we can use in those
places where they’re really necessary thank you
I have cancers helmer Caskey Lehman
… then kind of AGA and older kind of who
spoken for again so we’ll go in that order …
so that’s helmer casting
thank you very much and through the chair and I
do have a couple questions about this one I think
probably for Mr bridge so if we can answer I
think that he mentioned that there’s three hundred and fifty
give or take employees are affected by the
it’s a rich
the so there’s a large pool of casual employees …
three an fifty five employees earn fifteen dollars unless these
are the employees that are spoken such as program instructors
concession stop building attendants sales admissions folks
that’s in each of the positions
and this rich could you give us a sense of
what the total lefty count is for the city because
obviously we have a lot more employees who are earning
more than fifteen dollars an hour or if you just
put it in context
through the chair that generally I I’m gonna ask me
run three thousand police cross corporation
okay that’s helpful … I think it’s important … colleagues
to think about what we’re actually dealing with and so
we’re not talking about the provincial minimum wage and you
know this is the discussion we had last time …
in two thousand eighteen when we were dealing with the
bridge a minimum wage and I was the cost driver
that was increasing of the cost we don’t with the
majority of the increase last year that it was almost
one point five million dollars an on going basis to
get up to fourteen dollars an hour and then this
is the part the smaller part to go from fourteen
to fifteen and and really we didn’t have much of
a choice then and and … with that much of
a discussion about it … if I recall correctly that
in the budget discussion at now we’re in a different
situation where you know it’s already been budget in two
thousand nineteen and we’re talking about taking it out and
that these are not funds that are gonna be raised
and spent on something else Devin before us is to
not raise the funds and not spend the money anything
as I just wanna be clear we’re we’re not talking
about raising revenue … we’re tying the knot raising revenue
that’s why it’s a negative have and so you know
I can see why people would want to do that
if you think property tax or to hire you don’t
thing is you some money there’s reasons why you would
want to support it and I think we have to
look at you know who are we actually approved into
what positions and what we think is the floor and
salary that we should be paying to employees and colleagues
who work on the
last council remember we had that there’s a panel on
poverty one of the recommendations are was first of all
to establish what the living wage figure was for London
and generally the idea was to encourage people to become
living wage employers and councillor Turner is named off a
whole number of employers a lot in the private sector
some of them in the public sector and certainly look
when I was on the board of the public health
unit about health unit became a living wage employer and
in the last term of council the worsening please and
contract employees who weren’t being paid a living wage and
… we put into that
so now everybody is this being paid at least that
and what what we’ve seen is that we pay people
a better and some of the issues we were having
one way so you know I don’t know if that’s
because we’re into recruiting different people or but we saw
some H. R. issues once we start paying people a
better and … yeah I think there are H. R.
reasons why you want to pay people certain amounts of
money and not others right and and this room is
probably filled this every single person this room is making
more than fifteen dollars an hour and so that’s not
the principles like how much should you pay on that
knee noted nobody should be paid more than fifteen dollars
an hour it’s a question of how much you pay
for these specific kinds of jobs and what’s appropriate amount
and what sort of the floor and I think that
there’s a good opportunity to recoup some these people
especially if you think it was something like Aquatics for
example right to quite explicit offered on exactly what these
people are doing … in Aquatics Gary Mr bridge give
a couple of examples but a couple years ago we
could not higher life starts with the clothes waiting fools
because we can hire in the problem was we were
paying enough
and the solution was we pay people more and we
recruited more letter
and and so you know it has real life consequences
for in the delivery of services sometimes and I think
we need to approach it from that perspective not like
this property discussion but what the provincial minimum wage should
be because it’s not as I’m I’m interested in the
in the debate I think I’m inclined to vote against
this particular one … I’m persuaded but whatever most my
colleagues were against it but I am interested to hear
what the rest my clients have to say
… and with that we’ll go to some your colleagues
councillor Cassidy thank you Mister chair I have a question
at least one hour councillor helmer and and and and
some other … councillors had brought up the life guard
situation … we anyone on council last time recalls the
… that we can find life card someone during during
that that situation … can you can staff through you
please remind me did we increase the wages for lifeguards
in order to attract … and fill those shortages
I can’t to that is yes … but I think

it Mr bridge wants to to providing for the context
… you can … but that was my understanding of
my conversation Mr **** said about that specific issue Mr
through the chair the wage increase for lifeguards was increased
of the three fifty five just important to notice none
of them are lifeguards
so through you Mister chair … there’s three hundred fifty
five casual employees that are affected by this particular business
case can you tell me how many casual employees
there are all together
through the chair you’re stretching a bit here but I
will estimated dead bodies and two thousand
given the life guard situation was unique one do we
ever go through the casual and they the list of
casual employment that job classifications whatever and
and sort of assess what the wage rate is and
absent competing with the private sector or forever variety of
reasons do we ever re assess what those casual positions
are paid
through the chair yes we do that and … I
can tell you … also … is that we currently
don’t have it any challenges recruiting for the specific positions
given the current wage rate
one final question … and I may have comments later
on I I am still listening of those … casual
employees the ones we’re talking about here concession stand employees
and those sorts of things
it’s my
… understanding or I assumption that a lot of those
… our summer employment for example … and they tend
to be the same
people coming back summer after summer is my assumption correct
or do you have an idea on how many how
many of these are students that have been working for
us summer after summer and how many are brand new
every year
through the chair I can tell you that … eighty
percent of these employees are school age children … in
that range that do come back year after year with
the average age of being nineteen thirties casual groups
thank you Mister chair those are my questions for now
okay I have councillor Lehman
well … very interesting debate … joining and doing all
the opinions here … the last few councillors on products
some good points … councillor squire … I agree that
we get a dangerous campground when we start competing with
private enterprise
… councillor helmer brought up a very good point …
about how … when you let market forces … act
on of labor rates … you can see an improvement
and an wages as needed … and then councillor Cassidy
touched on … bright I would … students
… in my experience what we saw with the last
… mandatory increase in minimum wage … we saw companies
… reducing their head count companies and governments have to
live within budgets and you can raise wages as much
as you like
management will have to figure out how to … incorporate
those increased costs by cutting elsewhere and what we have
seen as we’ve seen a reduction … in people hired
so sometimes … these actions have … unintended consequences of
hurting those that … we’re looking to help … in
this case I believe students students … often look to
cities of for that first job … it ties in
perfectly because a lot of it’s a seasonal work which
is outside … their their school and what will happen
with parks departments and other private … summer agencies as
they’ve looked ways … for ways to … cut staff
to handle … their increase costs because they cannot raise
prices in the private sector and on our side what
our prices are prices are taxes to the taxpayer
I don’t want to see pressures on our staff to
hire less students I wanna hire more students given that
entry level job … that they can put on the
resume when they graduate from school to … to get
enter into the work force on a permanent basis so
I will be supporting … this motion
mayor holder
thank you very much I think a colleague says the
given a wide range of views and is this is
the very first issue that we’ve now had for some
debate it’s going to be an interesting afternoon up I
was interested to hear staff talk about … as the
to find our work force as casual as students I
heard … and say it isn’t difficult at this current
… which range it is difficult to her casual labor
we’ve heard arguments around … what this does in terms
of housing affordability living wage
I’m not sure with this pure working group … with
that it is defined as this casually route that those
are the issues that impact I can tell you when
the minimum wage … went in one swoop from eleven
dollars thirty five it believed fourteen dollars that was the
only cost to it because … there somewhere the reef
button additional thirty percent of cost associated when you at
CP PDVSA be another … labor related payroll costs …
it was pretty impactful for the private sector and frankly
when you look at the one point five million dollars
that was budgeted … for … city employees at that
time … that’s that’s dramatic in that was forced on
us it’s ironic I don’t think we would be talking
about this at all … today if the
I think that if the … previous provincial government had
not … put the … wage range … media up
fourteen dollars last journey first in our tree fifteen dollars
… … for the next … January first that’s how
this number … comes to be
I believe in paying for wage I also think market
demands are with the things that … dictate what that
is and ultimately when we have … are … our
our labor groups that competes in the go chic with
our city council for a wage … increases in the
like … the use of writing things cost of living
in the and like to determine it this goes so
well beyond that because it was an artificial construct from
a previous government and that’s how we’ve automatically come to
this fifteen dollars is becoming the living wage look if
you’re a full time person … and your the primary
income earner I really get that and … and and
I understand the impact it’s even fifteen dollars … if
that’s if you’re the sole breadwinner even to … full
time workers of the kind which I think that’s challenging
but that’s not we’re talking about here we’re talking about
… casual a lever student labour who by the way
I think … do our work I don’t have heard
anyone here at this table say that … that we
don’t to have fun in a strong and good …
workers … in our casual labor pool but I mine
for these are not the ones today that we’re talking
about terms of housing affordability … living wages … I
think what we tried to do in this process as
we go through a number of these issues today is
we’re trying to bounce current cost so what is bouncing
Karen cost me I heard that comes rental stock in
terms of some of the prairies we have to do
with and I’m mindful of that we have to respect
to the tax payers we’ve heard that a we don’t
want to compete with the private sector I’ve heard that
and I Michael because is always that balance but I’m
just looking at the … cost drivers to the budget
this is not a five hundred twenty one thousand dollar
increase over this and the next multi year budget we’re
talking not … at at somewhere in the range of
two point six million dollars and and I mean we
can play that out too intense degree but I’m saying
is whatever we heard staff say whatever six this year
becomes fixed and on going forward and and and the
regional support this motion is because I think what we’re
trying to do is balance that care cost as we
go through a number of priorities that manages community to
our great city as we go forward so … I’m
the … cancers … we will all decide … from
our conscience or what we further how we feel …
… and … I will be its port of this
particular route
this particular item
… thank you I have councillors Lewis Hopkins and Kayabaga
on the list so and Turner
thank you Mister chair and … a I will say
that … holder so remarkable balancing Karen Costa straight home
… very eloquently … my thought process on this issue
… three Mister chair to staff I do want to
just ask for a little piece of information or clarification
… Mr bridge you indicated that … the average age
is nineteen … so for my benefit and the benefit
of my colleagues is it fair to say that some
of these … employees affected by this are actually under
nineteen may in fact be secondary students not post secondary
students Mr bridge
through the chair as indicated previously … eighty percent of
these employees and casual pool are in their high school
or post graduate … so under age twenty three eighty
percent are under age twenty three the average ages nineteen
… for this group
a service
thank you councillor sorry your concern that tied up and
that … that’s consistent with my own experience at …
some of our local arenas where the concession staff are
in fact high school students who later in the day
will put on their skates and and go play game
they’re running some pocket money on the weekends they are
not living on this wage … I really want to
think out councillor Cassidy for raising the the life guard
issue in the fact that on a case by case
basis it’s still something that we can review moving ahead
if there are job classifications … that need to be
paid higher to attract good quality applicants … I think
it’s very important that we keep that in mind and
also a to mayor holders comments that this is not
a one time cost we’re adding point one to the
budgets from here on out on this … so I
want to drive those points … home I feel like
we might be starting to
recap this and and get to a decision point of
so I just want to reiterate what councillor van Holst
said about mission critical a because we heard things like
tuition costs are rising housing costs are rising and those
things are true
… but if there was a business case here that
was suggesting that we subsidize tuition … I would be
voting against that because it’s not … within our realm
of jurisdiction and it’s not mission critical to our will
is council so as councillors reach their decision point on
this I want to ask you to really think about
what our role is as municipal council as municipal leaders
on this
thank you councillor a councillor Hopkins and then just so
you have colleagues are where Kayabaga Turner and squire and
it seems like we’re getting close to everybody sure in
their opinions so we’ll go through that was see through
anymore but I think we’re getting close the interest rate
thank you Mister chair and I really appreciate the debate
I think this is a difficult one Fisher … and
I appreciate the comments I do have a quick question
to staff through you Mister chair to stuff of from
the conversation with just had by increasing this …
the wage … for this three hundred and fifty or
so workers are are we … creating less opportunities to
hire people so in other words are we going to
be reducing the amount of people will be hiring
it’s a rich how are
through the chair
that I can speak to specifically but we are is
a fixed amount of money and therefore depending on the
wage rate I would suspect that that could have an
impact in that regard
okay I’ll go to the next
miss Livingston sorry
through the chair I I think that’s an operational question
if I if I may and … a because I
I run most of the summer camp programs Aquatics aside
there are a couple of options with respect to how
one would manage an increase on your cost … impacts
one is if it’s not addressed through the allocation I’m
given through my budget than another option for us to
look at is user fees if that’s not pursued or
supported then we would be looking at a reduction in
the number of staff to support camps and playgrounds
5 you’re good councillor Hopkins
… yes because I think … that’s important to know
and understand …
and I may have to rethink my position here so
again thanks … for the debate
cancer Kayabaga turned squire
thank you Mister chair … I also appreciate the debate
that we’re having here and just putting things into context
and …
but however I would like to to talk about the
fact that we talk about students here and … I
think the age gap is that was between nineteen twenty
three and under and somewhere between nineteen years old and
… students who count on those drops to a lot
of students who work because they need to support their
families and to support themselves … myself being one of
them when I was a student I was a mother
and I had a family to support so it is
important to have
at one in mind as we make those decisions to
think that every student … is you know not meeting
this money not meeting the strap is not true because
a lot of our Londoners are students who are supporting
families who have been working … to support their families
to pay for their fees are thrown all sap and
as they come from families that don’t have a lot
so I still just ask colleagues to support … defeat
this motion on the table because
students also matter and living wages matter and it’s it’s
it’s kind of … out of touch to think that
every student … is able to support themselves are less
at home and has a good support system but there
are students like myself who I’m pretty sure I can
I call a lot of voices because I received a
lot of emails from different people and from the from
taxpayers as well who do pay taxes and who do
you think that it’s important to support … living wages
… I I wanna you know put in opt acrobatic
and that … do a lot of students who are
working to support their families and if we want to
go back to I kind of wanted to go back
on the mir statement this morning it was very inspirational
to here … with the mail was saying about poverty
and and working together to and that and provide jobs
and provide … a good community and and this was
will be campaigned on let’s be the example of what
we campaigned on that’s provide living wages in our city
and students are family members who contributed to their families
as well and they do deserve living wages thank you
thank you councillor Turner
thank you Mr president officers for you in just a
few things one if I could clarify miss Livingstone’s statement
there … I believe when you said that you would
have to reduce or to fee increases that would be
if a fifteen dollar an hour wasn’t funded through this
motion is that correct
residents and through the chair that’s correct if it’s not
find it it’s it’s not provided to my base budget
than those are the options I would be faced with
yes that’s important clarification … if we were to say
make fifteen the minimum and not provide a source of
funding these would be the actions that miss living someone
have to take if we were to say retain a
source of funding that we’re identifying here than those actions
to not have to occur
… thanks to councillor Campbell Kayabaga for mentioning that not
all people under age twenty four working for the city
you’re living comfortably at home with their parents and just
accumulating wealth to some degree …
significant reasons for why somebody might wish to have …
a living wage
back in America older statement about this being an arbitrary
number it is not the reason why the provincial government
was moving the minimum wage upwards was to get closer
to what the living wage wasn’t living wage is not
an arbitrary number to calculated number based on the costs
of food clothing shelter childcare transportation medical expenses recreation a
in essence to be able to live
those making less than minimum … as the living wage
are not able to meet these obligations
not all of them that’s some of them are reduced
in some way they might not be able to buy
clothes in might not be able to buy as much
food or healthy food you might be choosing cheaper less
healthy alternatives if we consider the social determinants of health
one of the largest factors is employment and wage
so I I also heard the discussion about competitiveness and
competing with the private sector which seems really weird because
the private sector said this made us less competitive so
is it making us more competitive or less competitive for
we compete with I reject both arguments actually because
the private sector didn’t take a massive hit out of
the increase in minimum wage increase
and it’s also for us to be able to show
there were no ethical employer
we’re not just paying the minimum amount we’re making sure
that our staff can make ends meet
and that’s what a living wage is in fact when
we talk about fifteen dollars an hour and sixty one
cents less than living wage still
I think those points needed to be pushed back upon
the one last one is with respect to respect for
tax payers in the product and all of that when
you take a look at those twenty five employers
that chose to do living wage
perhaps their product cost when up marginally
but the quality of life for their employees went up
significantly and their competitiveness as an employer and their position
within the community was augmented and strengthened as think the
same thing happens here for us
councillor squire at the like a lot of arguments at
city council the arguments go from factual arguments just speculative
arguments and and and and saying that if we don’t
do this this is going to happen these people are
going to suffer I mean that was very early in
this argument shall not to be accurate because of the
characterization of this work for who they are
and essentially they are students and they’re also casual workers
so they’re not full time employees they’re not people are
making this a career and I have one of these
living in my basement and what he did was he
did this is I as a job during school until
he got his full time job and now he doesn’t
do it anymore and I can tell you when the
minimum wage now somebody might say well he’s really well
out because he’s my son well you ought to talk
to him about that but … he … viewed the
increase in the minimum wage a fourteen dollars an hour
as a complete windfall he was very excited about
and I just wanna remind people that this argument is
about the minimum wage it’s not about the living wage
fifteen dollars an hour whatever is not a living wage
that’s a discussion for another day and I know people
proposed to just let me tell you that the minimum
wage of fourteen dollars an hour in Ontario is the
second highest minimum wage in the country exceeded only by
Alberta at fifteen dollars an hour so it is not
a it is not insulting wage it is a significant
increase to those people so I think this motion make
sense and I think there has been a lot of
that we can solve the world’s problems by making this
way it’s a little bit higher we can solve the
housing problem we can do all these things and it’s
just not actor
councillor van Holst councillor Cassidy … I’ll just for my
colleagues that …
I very much appreciate a robust debate … we do
have other things to get through … and as people
approach their decision making I would appreciate if you can
keep your points are counterpoints concise
thank you very much perhaps … through you Mister chair
to to our staff I could ask what are …
well average on
what we pay on average firm place in in even
are part time employees have that have that figure
the server is chair I don’t have that that information
available here councillor alright cinnamon nine
remember those figures were but … they’re they’re certainly fine
excessive of living wages so I think we’re certainly a
living wage employer here at the city the city of
London … the fact that we also have jobs for
students five I think it’s fine … it it seems
like we’ve got we’re bringing up some hypothetical
full in this argument it also it also seems like
what should have been a really simple decision a are
we budgeted for more than we needed and now the
province and we don’t have to pay that much we
should just accept this but … it’s this decision as
kind of become a proxy for the the idea about
living wages for an hour discussing living wages and how
important that is and … I don’t think it really
impacts here and the last point I would like to
make to … my colleagues is that we are board
of directors where the board of directors of a big
corporation a corporation that has an excellent H. R. department
who will for us decide what’s the best way age
to pay for a particular job and some of those
wages will be far far far in excess of living
wages and and some of them may be a little
less and that’s all fine I think we can trust
them to do a fine job they told us that
they have no problems finding this I hope that the
people lose apply for these jobs … this is an
appropriate wage for them and if if people need more
money to to support their family they should be looking
for living wage jobs I’m I encourage them to do
that so … what I hope we do is just
accept this this business case and … and the five
hundred thousand dollars … that we won’t be taking from
our our tax payers and hope that we’ll deal with
these issues directly and and not as councillor squire point
out in some speculative sense thank you
and the last personalised is councillor Cassidy so far good
to have the last word
thank you Mister chair … of one … one more
quick question to Mr bridge through you … do we
also have like a classification of employees that a call
permanent part time
Mr bridge
through the chair we do permit part time positions in
other employee groups generally this group were talking about is
a casual for
so for a permanent part time employees with baby making
above the minimum wage
through the chair is a ticket to start this discussion
are United staff … it’ll make greater than fifteen dollars
an hour
thank you very much so I I wasn’t sure coming
in if this was going to be a debate I
know it had been … talked about quite a bit
on social media and I know in our public participation
meeting we had a … that submission from the public
… on this issue … I I wanna thank you
through you through the chair to … … councillor Kayabaga
for bringing this up because I do think it’s a
worthwhile debate I also
I want to say one thing to start we’re not
just here for tax payers you know where we’re see
councillors we were elected by
some a percentage of voters not all the voters vote
unfortunately that we were elected by a percentage of voters
that doesn’t mean we don’t represent all eligible voters and
it doesn’t mean we don’t represent people that can’t vote
and people that don’t earn enough money to pay taxes
we represent people that can’t pay taxes
so and then we represent a lot of people who
pay rent and so they’re not overtly paying property taxes
but they’re paying property taxes through their rent
I want I just want to make that very clear
that said I’m very says I’m very sympathetic to people
that are paying property taxes and especially those on fixed
incomes especially pensioners things like that people I’ve out early
parents I know what it means to be able to
stay in your own home for as long as possible
it means a great deal for well being all sorts
of all sorts of … mental health physical health all
of that stuff if they in from people can stay
in their own home for as long as they possibly
can that’s a very good thing and sometimes
paying property tax which is a very regressive form of
us for for of revenue for city and unfortunately affects
the lowest income earners the most whenever there’s a a
minuscule an increase in property taxes I’m I’m conscious of
they’re eight members of this council of been through this
every year now for four years and this is really
difficult we make difficult decisions throughout the year budget is
extremely difficult because we have so many competing interests so
many competing needs
and and really you what many people don’t realize is
we have a limited amount of control over the overall
budget councillor mail holder mentioned today that the largest part
of our budget is protective services … police and EMS
and and fire and I see members of the police
service chief in the two deputy chiefs up there welcome
… and so we have limited control over a huge
part of our budget that’s why we tend to argue
over what seems like small amounts because that’s the very
limited amount that we can control
we’re not talking about a living wage
… I would actually support … the manner in his
contention that it kind of was an arbitrary number because
fifteen dollars doesn’t come close to the living wage in
Toronto it’s over eighteen dollars an hour at least it
was four years ago it’s probably much higher than that
now so paying fifteen dollars an hour to somebody in
the city of Toronto doesn’t bring them close to living
wage and a living wage is a number for two
income earners in a household with two children it’s they’ve
set up that way so to income to full time
living together with two children each earning fifteen dollars and
sixty one cents in the city of London that gets
them to a living wage so that they can not
only pay the rent and feed their children but also
participate in their community
I don’t think as other councillors have said that this
group of casual employees is what we’re talking about when
we’re talking about these two income household with two children

when we talk about being a living wage employer a
lot of the employers that councillor Turner listed don’t
many of them don’t even have casual employees
I know when we talk about true down there model
almost from the beginning was with a job our employees
get house and car
that that that was their philosophy … they wanted to
provide employees with a good quality of life and a
good means to to live that life …
and I think they should be commended as all the
employers on on the list and and others that that
choose to pay a living wage the difficulty with the
municipality and I’ve I’ve talked to other representatives from municipalities
across the province and across the country and when I
was doing the work on the with the poverty panel
… we talked a lot about living wage are the
difficulty with municipalities because we have these different classifications of
employees and when you have summer students many of them
have connections many of them know people who know people
in there and they and and they know who to
talk to you to apply for these jobs in the
first place they know when these jobs are coming up
I’m I’m it I knew that the city of London
was a living wage employer if we didn’t have to
count the casual employees in there and a lot of
municipalities actually call themselves living wage employers and they choose
not to include casual employees as part of their classification
of themselves the city of London is very open and
transparent and … and that hasn’t come forward of declaring
ourselves like a living wage employer because of that classification
of employees
I’m trying not to ramble Mister chair but I feel
like I am
I respect to the councillor’s.
that have have raised this issue
and what they’re trying to say but I think
if we’re talking about a lot of different things on
in this one discussion and I think that we have
there could be unintended consequences despite … the clarification from
is living stand about what some of those could be
I I fear that an unintended consequence down the road
could mean raising fees for …
our sports for swimming lessons or things like that different
spectrum programs and
if we’re looking at raising fees down the road to
paid labor costs for the casual employees that run the
concession stand for example
then are we
limiting or hampering the ability of some people who are
dealing with precarious employment or for carries income we affecting
their ability to fully participate in community in that way
in joining programs and going out and doing things I
understand there are there are subsidies in means to help
the lowest of the low but there’s always that little
that little sliver that’s gets Mr not quite enough and
they’re not quite rich enough and they sort of fall
through the cracks I don’t qualify for subsidies but yet
they they can’t afford it on their own either I’m
going to support
the amendment that is before us
thank you
thank you … I have two items of note …
Mr bridge but we had some time did some good
work and has an answer to councillor van Holst question
I’ll let him address that now and then I’ll go
to councillor Salih who is the only person I have
a to my speakers list
through the chair the question was what’s the current average
so … hourly rate for casuals it’s seventeen dollars and
ten cents currently for casuals
check out of 7
Mr and I don’t really get to speak earlier because
we speak to the amendment if one came up …
I’ll be very concise in brief … I appreciate all
the remarks are shared here today but I couldn’t to
sit back and just as a record is gonna be
a very close vote from what I’m hearing around the
horseshoe I did want to stress the fact that councillor
cai about though is is bang on when she talks
about the realities … that many people don’t have those
luxuries and I think when you know I heard a
comment at
it’s easy to just say going to apply for a
higher paying job but that’s just not simply just possible
in many instances for example … I guess now we
look at life cards as a more of a higher
paying job it cost hundreds of dollars to become even
certified to maybe even have that opportunity I know we
do a lot of good work to try to remove
some of those barriers idle for example one key services
one of the few … services where the ATS costing
it initially is not needed so that three hundred dollar
fee just to apply to even be considered to be
a police officer is now remove in and that’s when
we talk about some of those barriers but those things
have existed in those things to continue to happen in
our community and I think it’s I know it’s a
significant amount in total when you look at it but
I think the pros outweigh the cons and think it’s
a right step in the right direction and I recognize
that we wanna talk about decisions made outside of London
but I’m talking about the decision that is most beneficial
for the community here and I recognize that we’re trying
to be respectful the taxpayer and all those pieces but
the reality remains as we are asking people to come
and serve and work for the city of London …
and do difficult jobs and sometimes deal with difficult situations
and circumstances is sometimes deal with difficult people as I’m
sure no councillor as every councillor here already has that
experience with some people in our community so I would
encourage you all to defeat this motion before us …
may move forward and I’ll leave it at that
councillor van Holst I thank you Mr chancery … but
I do want to make a point that I’m interested
in targeted approaches a we have a certain amount of
money here five hundred thousand dollars we want to pay
to … to employees at
if cancers were to come forth and say I would
like money for us to have a campaign to encourage
… the community to pay living wages I think that
would be a target approach that would have a big
impact … when is where is this is is is
not that this isn’t having them an impact that we
want on that issue so so please let’s let’s realize
that something else could come up we don’t need to
do this as our our way to
on the note take a little shot at that …
hopefully that’s people will spend this and realize that that’s
what we’re trying to do we could actually take on
living wages if we wanted let’s do that then directly
thank you I have a motion it’s moved and seconded
to support …
… budget amendment case number two … just a reminder
to colleagues is without a lengthy debate … supporting business
case number two well … remove the provisions in the
… … the budget amendments for … funding minimum wage
… voting against it would not do that and then
subsequent motions could be made just so we’re clear on
the vote that were we have before us … it’s
moved in secondary there’s no for the discussion I’m an
open question for voting
closing the vote and the motion is carried nine to
thank you guys and I will also say thank you
to … Mr **** said Mr bridge and his team
for having a lot pretty much every answer prepared and
ready for us for that particular debate I notated councillors
making the decisions
… we have … I will just like colleagues know
what my intention was to break … … for lunch
at twelve thirty … so we should hopefully be able
to knock off a couple of other items that in
cases so but that’s that’s my intent … and …
will obviously concluded debate when we’re at that around the
case number four … this is the … change regulation
bicycle lane maintenance … net impact of … four hundred
and eighty thousand dollars … I would look for a
mover and a seconder on this case and then I
would open for discussion councillor Hopkins is moving seconded by
councillor Lewis
because remember gonna know you had some questions are you
looking to discuss the searches vote on
no comments we can
open business case number 4 for voting

closing the vote the motion carries 12 to 2
but I brings down the average amount of time for
business case … see we can keep that pace up
the next is the case number six cost driver safeguard
program London police service that impact one hundred and sixty
one thousand dollars a look for a mover to sector
in this business case and we’ll have a debate moved
by councillor Salih seconded by
councillor Peloza
any discussion
councillor Lewis
thank you Mr chairman and through you … I guess
I I ultimately want to ask a question and I
don’t know whether staff we will answered or maybe it
will be something that one of our police … were
representatives will be able to answer … I’m cognizant of
the fact that … the police budget is the largest
single chunk of our municipal budget … and I respect
that there are ever increasing pressures on our police services
to do number of tasks that we don’t necessarily consider
policing … some of that places … mental health strings
on those officers and community where we’re talking about mental
health … I can see the benefit of … supporting
this and bringing in … that safeguard program to support
our officers better I guess my question … through you
if anyone’s able to comment on it is … do
we anticipate a reduction in … lost … staff hours
… due to stress leaves and and things like that
as a result of bringing this program online and that
are supporting our officers in the long term recognizing that
it may take some time to take fact
… yes I have councillor Salih sticking his hand up
… and you’re looking to respond to this question go
sure in and went up to you I want to
thank my colleague for asking that question I think that
you know first off I just want to the London
police service board at the time that is the support
of this is I think it was a compelling case
has brought forward buyer ministration on the that a lot
of positive work and Sharon to break the stigma around
on mental health in this step in the right direction
that we hold hired we wholeheartedly support … I wanna
give an example to my colleagues comparable police service at
Waterloo regional police for example there was a report that
was sent came out back in I believe August of
twenty eighteen and talk about how fifteen percent of their
officers … we’re not deployable on a given day …
officers and civilian staff so a hundred sixty nine officers
and civilians staff would be offered
each and every day when you look at that a
part of that would of course include people who are
impacted by mental health so I think yes it’s easy
to recognize that a for support from line officers in
our staff we can ensure that there’s gonna be a
more productive workforce in a force and service that can
continue to contribute … and not necessarily have to take
as much sicker leave time that is currently may be
the case in some instances … but again I wanna
be mindful in the not to stigmatize people maybe taking
sick leave so I would be very careful with my
language on that but I think the point is …
that it is a positive I think it’s the right
thing to do we want to support our officers who
are continually in almost every day exposed to a lot
of things that we don’t recognize whether it’s just from
car accidents all the way to suicides in our community
or sometimes responding to you know find instances so I
just wouldn’t hold my colleagues will support this
thank you
our councillor seven answer your question … you changed available
yes Mr just wanna thank the council for his response
on that and … … take this opportunity to say
I’m looking forward to … the option to write on
it and experience with our officers are seen first hand
… with thanks to chief for making that opportunity available
great I these on a ride along of a council
meeting right now so I was going well
… probably after the vote you’ll know right … any
other discussion on this particular item if not I have
it … duly moved and seconded I will open it
for voting
councillor squire
closing the vote the motion carries 14 to one
that brings us to case number 7 which is in
possible new council direction London children’s museum funding request …
the net impact zero however I understand there’s potentially discussion
of a source of financing … I just want to
help have our treasure outline I believe this item is
one they came because council for due to the budget
process … but I don’t believe there was a tax
recommendation associated with it from our staff unless unless I’m
wrong because you comment on that you’re looking for council
to set a direction on this item and are you
looking for council to set up a total source of
financing are you recommending one
through the chair we have recommended that said council was
to prove this at the funding come from the economic
development reserve fund there is side thirteen million dollars in
that refined in more than ample amount to cover this
and we believe that … and I cases is definitely
relevant to find it from that reserve
so I ask the questions or colleagues be clear about
the … motion I’m gonna ask the moved and seconded

and if you’re looking to make a change that source
of funding that’ll be the one in the motion and
we can make amendments to that potentially
… so I look for a mover and a seconder
of the support of the London children’s museum funding request
councillor hillier
seconded by councillor Lewis
councillor Lewis
thank you Mister chair and … I just want to
inform colleagues there is a a draft motion … circulated
to you … by the clerks … that … councillor
van Meerbergen van Meerbergen was prepared to second … at
this time … after discussions with us staff and with
mayor holder … we’re going to … re direct that
motion with a clause see … to the strategic …
priorities and policy committee when we deal with the strategic
plan … so that’s why and I’m happy to second
… the business case … number seven here on the
children’s museum … I can tell you … as one
of your representatives on the board for tourism London that
… John Winston and his team are fully supportive of
this initiative … this is going to have an incredibly
positive impact on the old East Village area on the
redevelopment of one hundred Kellogg lane … into an entertainment
destination for a city and … the economic spin offs
from this are going to be beneficial not only to
the media area … but certainly … well I’m sure
councillor helmer will speak for himself I’m sure his residents
are supportive of seen this I know my residence in
my ward are supportive of seeing this too because it’s
going to benefit the city as a whole
Louis seconded other discussion
councillor helmer
thank you I certainly like a hearing from that councillor
word to … more good things you can save a
all these village and what’s going on over there the
better you should that and
I like … to where this is headed I am
because cognizant of the fact that there are different ways
of paying for this sort of thing and … economic
developers … fund … because the guns are the budget
or know that there are a lot of demands on
that … you know to owners or phone sometimes opportunities
come up on short notice other required mobilization of capital
from that fund and so during the early discussion of
the budget I did ask about
could be use the tourism infrastructures are funding for some
of this of my understanding from the children’s museum is
that they don’t need all the money up front right
away and so that it could be faced a bit
over time and … I don’t think that it matters
too much which pot of money comes from I think
the fact that Mr Winston is here strongly supporting and
at this particular capital investment is a good example of
this is something that is is very appropriate for tourism
infrastructure reserve funding I know it’s a new a source
of funding and I don’t think it needs to necessarily
be all of one you know all from a you
know to … reserve and all from tourism infrastructure so
I wonder at through the chair whether our staff would
on a comment about that but splitting perhaps the half
of it coming from the economic numbers or if and
how the coming from tourism infrastructure recognizing that even the
tourism infrastructure funding could perhaps be phased over time if
they don’t need it all in two thousand and nineteen
for example will become in twenty twenty other that would
you know mean we’re not drying out all the money
from the tourism infrastructures or fund as we’re adding to
it you know a recognize that it’s not fully funded
yet we don’t know exactly where to be
go ahead
is through the chair certainly that is a a source
that absolutely we would be applicable and would support that
… staff to not recommended the new reserve funds particularly
because we’ve already committed funds … threaten it before Christmas
as well as looking at … what the projections are
it’s we have we have had a full year of
experience yet so certainly looking at the funding is available
within the economic development that was an equally good choice
… we are looking at a process to bring forward
with respect to the tourism infrastructure reserve fine because we
were trying to get some expertise in terms of what
the historical experience is going to be we we estimate
somewhere between two million two million to four million dollars
a year but there’s a lot of variations so we
were a little reluctant to pre comments money not knowing
how much is actually going to be there in a
group given year noting that there could be needs of
that also that council may wish to consider as part
of the next multi year budget so I I do
not understand there are others that are looking to possibly
come forward with that and we’re trying to look at
a report and a process to bring that forward for
council so that they can look at how they’d like
to utilize those funds in the future so that is
something certainly that is out council’s discretion to use their
there’s just a little bit of uncertainty in terms of
the certainly the commitment we could find a portion of
not knowing exactly how much will have you could end
up using all of what might be available
councillor Howard
hearing that and and wanting to err on the side
of …
a caution I think perhaps … when we proceed with
the split of say one and a half from the
economic to owners or fund and and five hundred thousand
from tourism infrastructure reserve keeping in mind we can keep
an eye on the sources of financing the actual expenditures
gonna happen in the future if there’s a subsequent report
about source of financing we can always we always have
that in the future I think it’s important that this
budget for it have it approved as a capital project
things very worthwhile a project and I think having a
split between them is is probably appropriate and … I
think it’s a little bit more room in acknowledge owners
are fun which I know tourism can have lots of
demands with the economic owners are fun as a lot
of demands you know we get we get all kinds
of things … funding out of there over times and
so I wonder if if my colleagues over that I
certainly move that amendment that we change it to a
one and a half million and five hundred thousand from
tourism infrastructure reserve fund and and see their score for
… colleagues away I’d like to handle this is a
we have a moved and seconded motion on the floor
… to be funded from a specific source … councillor
helmer suggesting that we modify that instead of two million
dollars from the economic found reserve funds that … five
three thousand would come from … the the tourism investment
capital find I came in the name of the top
of my head … if there is a consensus on
that then I think what I would prefer to do
that is … do that as an amendment … as
the source financing and I would look for a seconder
at there is consensus we can just just the main
motion I don’t have an objection to that so I
would look to see whether any colleague objects to pursuing
that is the source of financing there is one so
what we’re gonna do this is there’s at least two
so the second okay so we’re gonna do this is
a motion so what we have is a motion on
the floor to approve … the business case with one
source of financing and now an amendment made moved by
councillor helmer seconded by councillor Turner … on the source
of financing piece what we will do is we will
debate the source of financing fees now … that will
pass or fail and then we will go back to
discussion on the merits of the main amendment so I
have it moved and seconded the … amendment I will
start discussion on source of financing and councillor Turner you
seconded you also wanted to speak
thank you Mr president officer a a supported deck councillor
helmer is amendment … think … Nish they I was
thinking it should probably should be split fifty fifty or
entirely in the I can … the tourism infrastructure reserve
fund of because this is completely aligned with what the
purpose of that funds for … the economic development reserve
fund … may be a little more substantial in the
asks that we may be sick to fund our sub
to fund over the course of life of that reserved
… that councillor helmer mixes two points as well that
the timing of see … the disbursements from the fund
… don’t have to be immediate and can be …
just to to that point in time where they are
needed and so I think we have a fair amount
of security knowing that the infrastructure tourism infrastructure reserve fund
will have …
positive balance … I think I didn’t I appreciate councillors
councillor helmer is a point of caution to not go
as far into that fund has as I would and
I think it’s a it’s still an appropriate amendments and
I don’t I fully support that I think the project
itself is … is certainly worthy of support to
… councillors Lewis and Hopkins run a list and map
holder after that
thank you Mister chair and … while I appreciate where
my colleagues are going and I appreciate that the comments
of support for the project as a whole … I’d
encourage you to defeat … the amendment and and returns
to the main motion … my understanding and and …
… ms for one can … confirm this I think
that … we’re currently contributing almost six million dollars annually
to the economic development reserve fund … where is the
… hotel accommodation tax … which is generating the the
… tourism reserve fund …
might put somewhere between two and four million we’re not
really sure … into that reserve fund and we also
have been set up any parameters in terms of how
we’re going to access that reserve fund … the economic
development reserve fund has a healthy surplus right now I
will be continuing to … make annual contributions to keep
that find … in a healthy state … I think
that until we have parameters … established around the accommodation
… tax funding that this reserve fund for tourism that
we would best goal with the source of funding that
we have surety on and … develop the parameters around
accessing the tourism infrastructure reserve fund … before we start
spending that money because right now it’s not money that
we have in the bank
councillor Hopkins
thank you and … I a … I understand we’ve
already spent money out of that funds so … sets

I don’t I don’t see why we wouldn’t still to
that it’s it’s available there I do have a quick
question for you Mister chair to staff on when we
will be able to get an understanding of feet the
make up of sense fund and how it’s gonna work
in Watson
what’s in the fun via infrastructure fund the tourism infrastructure
fund at any idea when that will be coming to
us because as we’re spending money from it it would
be nice to know
… how it’s operating and how it six through this
I’m gonna start with the answer to that and then
I’m gonna put it over to our treasure … as
chair of the corporate services committee I can tell you
I’ve had a discussion with our treasure about … whether
or not we we bring forth a report outlined …
some parameters around … how we would handle the municipal
accommodation accommodation tax reserve on on the city side whether
we were going to look to divided into you know
when you’re a multi year strains there’s a lot of
discussions that we can have an that there’s probably some
decision making the council needs to make on that I
think that’s why she said we’re looking at potentially bring
for report timelines parameters on that I don’t know if
there’s any sort of date or whether she’s going to
require a direction from the corporate services committee to do
that but I just wanted to own a little bit
of that discussion because we had talked about that …
given the last in a falls within the corporate services
committee parameters so I idea this for Bonnie have some
comments that
yes thank you through the chair so we’re we’re already
working on that we’re hoping to have something ready to
bring forward to have discussions approximately may June at this
point to act in our next reports … it we
will bring in something forward in in February that is
our request that we have received already to come forward
to look at that in for another commitment so in
light of we’re trying to do it as quick as
we can but tied to the be a couple of
different options we’re trying to go through that’ll have requires
and council direction for us to go forward to probably
maintenance what we’re anticipating
so councillor it doesn’t mean we can’t use the fund
it just means that a report on some potential options
on how to will come forward a thank you for
that clarification because I know we’ve already use the funds
so … there’s there’s nothing stopping us from not using
the fine and and I’m looking forward to how this
one is going to work in operated and be updated
on the funds … that will be there and I
am … I can like councillor Turner
I I I could see half of the money …
it’s good to know that we don’t need this money
right away could be spent over time so I think
that’s important to know that I will be supportive of
the five hundred thousand I would probably want to increase
that but for now until we have a a good
idea of the nature of this fund … I’ll be
supporting it in time definitely supportive of the children’s museum
and the worked and that will … be going on
with with that group and … the development … Kellogg’s
mayor ed holder
I thank you chair I’m look I’m hearing brought support
for the lands prove … chilling museum … funding and
I certainly would … put my
my vote to that as well and support

I think what we’re talking about is where the money
might come from I really think that becomes the issue
and and how we … proportion … those funds if
that’s the decision of council then ultimately the time frame
we received a communication from the manager of tourism London
who really felt strongly that this would be very good
for tourism in our city and I don’t think we
would … disagree … in in broad terms when you
mentioned the … … the tourism … in search reserve
fund … I would agree that … that that’s a
very good use for terms with councillor Turner said
but I mindful is so where it isn’t stages of
development so what I thought when I heard from …
from councillor helmer was proportionality that is to say that
… we take … a pre proportion from … the
tourism fund reserve fund and then … the greatest part
of it from the … economic development reserved fundings quick
cracked it’s I think some five point nine million dollars
goes into that fund
… annually so … and it sits at a balance
I think …
ms Barbara on mentioned some thirteen million dollars it stands
at right now … that’s of on your work funds
so because of the manager of tourism really … spoke
in favor of this … and … it from us
the standpoint of tourism I really think that … I’d
like to see tourism … that was your friend have
a little bit skin in the game I’m mindful of
how much because of its status but prior to this
meeting I was going to have … at all …
if we’re going to be supporting it recommended all come
through the economic desert … developers are fine but I’m
mindful of the impact … that this has centrism and
I do think that … it just makes some sense
but again it’s in the early stages of the funds
so I don’t want to …
I don’t agree one strip that are we ready would
smell occasions … with respect to the journals through that
fund and … and again it’s really times
so the only other outstanding thing I think is there
depending on how consulates on this motion which encourage forty
the amended motion controllers motion is so the time and
I don’t know if that’s over two years over three
I don’t know what their need is but I wonder
if the I’m not sure from the standpoint of specifics
whether we can leave it to administration is extremely capable
of of of …
meeting at the monies as needed which could be to
could be whatever Kerr to type three years … as
needed … and leave it to them as long as
you’ve allocated where the major come from if that’s acceptable
approach that just seems to make some sense to me
and I would hope council would … support committed motion
I can look for some clarification from our staff if
you’d like on how they would approach a multi year
ask out of a fund that is divided whether they
would do it proportionately or in some sort of order
… if Mr bone has any comments on what we’re
contemplating here and how she would approach if it were
indeed a and asked that is drawn over multiple years
or would you look to transfer the full balance …
up front
through the chair typically what we would do is do
it based on milestone send and presumably we would work
that the a children’s museum to see what their requirements
would be and look at the funding and figure out
the cash flow accordingly based on those milestones
great councillor Lehman and then Cassidy
thank you chair
at the risk of muddying the waters … I think
… the mayor is a phrase skin in the game
… has to do with what I want to bring
I think we’re all in agreement … the children’s museum
plans fantastic it’s … … it’s gonna be a great
addition … to our tourism inside located in an ideal
spot of town … in an ideal of the building
that we’re looking to … … change use of
the done is children’s museum … while non profit is
a business it’s not a charity
and any business as a component financing that involves dad
and I don’t see any debt … involved in there
… and this is where the skin in the game
… comes in
… revenues I expect will will dramatically increase because of
their plans … so we’re talking about portion ing a
where the funding is going to come from I agree
with councillor helmer
we should look at the hotel hotel tax black market
is … … to be put into use the economic
development fund now I can see kind of see the
… the thought process behind that but what I would
like to just suggest again at the risk of running
the waters of the portion of the economic development funds
and I’m not too sure if there’s a vehicle for
this … a portion of it … be financed …
consider dat which it would be repaid … and I’m
not to sure fits into this amendment or another ma’am
it is … required on that …
I’d like to put that forward thinking
so to answer it council in your question on what
you can and can’t do a committee and we have
a main motion we have an amendment that is amending
source of financing and yes it is possible for you
to amend the parameters of that amendment to provide some
direction … so we can certainly go in that way
I would need a seconder … I didn’t know if
there’s a question there of the treasurer from that approach
… just usually just looking to do with that way
I guess the treasure … how would we dealt with
that process work
as part of
if through the chair just to insure understood the question
is how would we go about if we wanted to
have a loan as opposed to … providing that as
a loan as opposed to a grant
that’s correct that’s special yes can I clerk yes go
head … … the portion coming from the economic development
fund and and not the entire portion maybe a portion
of the hot you know
… principle … and as well as a you know
what I heard around
so through the chair we we have done this previously
with … I I know there was one in the
the last number of years that I recall where we
have issued alone instead … where council directed that report
it was a specific amount and then what we did
was we worked with the organization and develop to grant
agreement over a period of time where would be repaid
… with a interest rate accordingly and and work to
that process so … if that was something that council
wish to entertain we would have to come back with
their grant agreement and work with the museum to develop
that and bring it back for council approval
I wanna make up a ruling from the chair that
will hopefully simplify this debate a little bit … councillor
helmer is suggesting that we give money from a specific
financing source … the idea of moving to … alone
… repairable loan is in my opinion is chair counter
to the motion in a fundamental way to what councillor
helmer suggesting in which case I would suggest if you
want to make that motion that you would seek to
defeat the amendment the councillor helmer is making and then
move forward with an amendment of your own just to
keep it pretty clean and clear I’m gonna rule that
that’s in order if anybody has a problem that they
can challenge the chair but to try to keep this
clean I’m going to suggest that the potential amendment to
the amendment is counter to the intention of the amendment
and so we could deal with that one first and
then and subsequent I’m on the floor go ahead
so … what would be my intention … then I
would make a it’s out of councillor helmer it’s motion
was defeated I would bring forward … new motion that
would include councillor helmer is … thought process it would
not be possible correct except you would be bringing forward
something that would involve establishing a granting agreement with …
the children’s museum for repairable portion of the loan and
I was just if you’re going to make that motion
that you might want to identify that the level that
would be repairable so that we can have otherwise they
need some direction on the granting agreement so I think
if if no one of Jack’s that’s how I’m gonna
proceed as we’ll deal with cancer how much amend the
first of its defeated you could make … an amendment
that involve the granting agreement after that
so to continue on the speakers list
sorry councillor van Meerbergen just looking for some clarification …
with council women … you’re proposing because I think it’s
important that we understand before we decide whether yea or
nay on the first
… to see what’s coming up after so … is
it your … idea is to take part of it
and make it alone or the whole thing is a
I propose that we take a portion of councillor helmer
… amount from the hotel tax bucket and then we
look at taking a portion of that would be remaining
from the economic development fund … and make a portion
of that as a dad as opposed to just agree
… grant
so we looking at Tom half of the two million
sales alone like we have an idea of like what
percentage … just so I can interject that’s what I
meant when I suggested the council emission probably if he’s
going to move the subsequent motion be very clear on
the parameters because staff will need to know that information
as would be in any sort of future motion to
know exactly what proportion would be under granting agreement or
not so … and I I don’t mind allowing the
debate which is on councillor helmer is amendment you can
certainly talk about potential alternatives in your your support or
non support of this that that is fine … so
council and I don’t know if you have a suggestion
for cancer remember concern knows how to vote on councillor
homers amendment or not but allow that response to that
question as well he wants to know if you have
if you know the amount that would be a repairable
are up a retable grant
so the two million … ask … councillor helmer is
look is suggesting five hundred million come from fronts I
five one thousand five million well big project
right discussion
… that five hundred thousand come from the hotel tax
fund and … one point five comes from economic development
I would suggest be prudent that … we take off
of that one point five I would be suggesting that
five hundred thousand be a doctor Campbell to that fund
okay thank you
… Cassidy sorry and then councillor Lewis and then councillor
so thank you Mr chairman
… so I’m going to support councillor helmer amendment …
for people that might not be aware when we had
the debate about that the … hotel come or municipal
accommodation tax …
though it the are the parameters that were given to
us by the province was that we could implement this
this tax on visitors staying at our local hotels and
half of the revenue would have to go to a
tourism entity like tourism London for them to control and
the other half we could either again put under their
control or maintain control within the municipality and we chose
to maintain control over half of that front … with
they the parameters under the card that we maintain control
of … there were no
the rules are requirements we could have put that into
general revenue I believe … we chose to set up
this tourism economic reserve fund and that was under with
staff’s recommendation and for this very reason to find these
kinds of projects it’s completely appropriate that part of this
ask should come from that reserve fund … it’s it’s
almost a fourteen million dollar project and they’ve come to
the city asking for two million so councillor helmer is
is exactly right that this will be phased in this
this so we can draw from this reserve fund as
it starts to build … again … the manner stated
very clearly that Mr Winston was here in the gallery
and that’s that was when the first point I wrote
down that I wanted to make Mr Winston was here
as representative of tourism London with strong support
as this for this this project and for this …
organization as a tourism
generator here in London six it’s completely appropriate that we
should draw on this reserve fund …
the only thing we haven’t as we’ve heard from staff
we haven’t decided on our district on quite regulated criteria
for how asks are made and how we draw from
this fund its not unclear what should be funded from
this fund it’s does were working on the rule staff
for working on the rules going forward I’m not I’m
not keen on making part of this alone we have
as as ms barebone mentioned we did do a loan
in in the past was for the palace theatre was
to break to do some repair work on the walls
that were damaged from a leaky roof or something like
M. and from my memory of my memory is correct
we were the only source of funding for that project
so it made some sense and there was some hesitance
… from this council from the former council to find
those repairs and … I think was councillor van Holst
brought up the idea of a of a of I
think it was an interest free loan at the time
and that’s what council chose to do in order to
see this really good community organization get the funding they
needed to fix a landmark building in the city I
don’t think that we need to go that same route
with this because I think that the when you look
at where the …
the children’s museum is going to get their their findings
diversified is not only coming from the city they’re looking
at government grants federal and provincial and they’re looking at
federal the private sector individuals corporations foundations associations and groups
so they’re they’re they’re doing pretty broad approach in fundraising
and getting money to fund this project I think as
side as councillor helmer and councillor Lewis stated this will
be this will just add to … the callous building
and what’s going on there and in general add to
the cool factor in the old East Village that’s been
not taking place there for some time so I am
completely support of of councillor helmer is amendment and in
funding this business case
councillor Lewis Sally squire van Holst
thank you Mr chairman and councillor Cassidy I’ll just let
you know that the coolness factor slowly moving east so
soon you’ll be able to enjoy that and our allies
well … I I don’t disagree with anything that …
you or or many of the colleagues have said about
… the … municipal accommodation tax … reserve fund bucket
in in terms of … it being an appropriate sources
and if we were two years down the road …
I would be fully support of a of councillor homers
motion … or amendments to the main motion however I
think that … work we’re still a little early in
the game and I will tell you that the the
the it’s only been two meetings of the London …
tourism board that I’ve attended … since being appointed but
I will tell you that there’s been considerable discussion …
by members around the board table already about what kind
of other asks the maybe making … both for the
infrastructure portion of the fund as well as how they
may use some of of their funding and I’ll tell
you that the the message that was expressed by Mr
Winston … to those board members was … take a
slow approach because we don’t know exactly what the annual
revenue generation is going to be in and he’s cautioned
tourism members in and these are people with businesses …
who are directly involved in the tourism sector to take
a cautious approach to not asking too much of this
fine until it’s well established … that’s why I think
that … the main motion … still remains our best
option … I get the sense that I I may
be losing the debate on this one and if colleagues
choose to go with the the split find I would
certainly support the one point five and the point five
as councillor helmer has suggested over … making any portion
of this a … repayable loan … I think that
that’s still a better option the reason I support the
economic development Reese’s reserve find is that fine is it
is set up and we find it things like the
swift … fiber optics … downtown through that find
even though it’s not gonna create the swift thing is
not gonna create any jobs it’s going to benefit the
businesses downtown not only is the children’s museum renovation gonna
re purpose and an old industrial space into a tourism
it’s not just to move in it it’s an expansion
and it is going to create new economic opt opportunities
for being there and that’s why I think the economic
development reserve fund is the most appropriate source of funding
for that … I realize colleagues me disagree
I respectfully appreciate all the comments that you made a
boat … the hotel accommodation tax thank you made some
excellent points … whichever way you go I hope that
will support this ask of the children’s museum without asking
them to pay it back because I think they’re gonna
pay it back in the return on investment to our
community from the economic benefits they’re gonna generate
councillor Salih thank you Mister I’ll be brief … me
not it’s always prefer to sit right beside councillor helmer
because if you ever sit beside him like CSI he’s
able part a million things at once a and I
was able to quickly learn from him that
… I knows mentioned earlier that … museum London as
a check is a business but in fact you know
him being all you want to be able to tell
me real quickly eyes actually register chaired in confirm that
so I just want to clear that out for a
point of clarification for maybe those who are deciding on
the vote on this
I wanted to mention was I kind of inclined to
support what … councillor Lewis is saying and and and
how I would frame is that my concern is that
trying to withdraw money from my bank account that really
has in this essentially been set up yet so that’s
my one kind of reservations so I could see here
what my other colleagues have to say … but again
… I appreciate what councillor helmer is coming from because
he obviously always always talk about
thanks councillor I don’t of six CSI city councils gonna
have very good ratings …
but I appreciate the idea
councillor squire
I had done a question be before … bring make
some comments are we providing any operating funds to the
children’s museum are they covering all of that themselves and
if we are where’s where’s that money coming from
miss living sent
US through the chair through the learning community grants program
… the children’s museum currently and this will be the
last year as they look to re apply for the
twenty twenty opening … currently we find a hundred and
eighty eight thousand seven hundred annually
thank you very much that’s important to me because …
I think it’s important to know that we’re we’re not
just supporting if we do this the children’s museum in
terms of capital but there is a significant … operating
cost aspect … that we’re supporting and I I that
we have no control over the community grants program of
course but I think … I’m that’s a large amount
of money that we’re putting into the supporting the operating
costs and I I would encourage a children’s museum as
they move forward and was we provide them with this
money and if they don’t have a loan that they
might want to look at that ask and see if
… you know see if it can be something different
because quite frankly … we know from hearing from merry
not it says there are a lot of needs in
our community so I’m hopeful and I know I’ve talked
the museum about this at that would be something that
I would like to see them look at in the
future so I’ll be watching for that on in terms
of the where the money’s coming from I I I
agree with councillor Lewis but given my history here councillor
Lewis I may not may not help too much but

I think it’s really important that and and I’m concerned
about using the the tourism money and and continuing use
that this will be the second time before you didn’t
set up the parameters of how we’re going to use
that money I understand generally what it’s going to be
but it’s we’re we’re spending money that we have not
yet had a real discussion about how we’re going to
spend it so I agree with … with councillor Lewis
in that regard with regard to a capital grant I
I understand the skin in the game are gonna but
I think I think to be seen is putting a
lot of skin in the game they’re they’re certainly sticking
your neck out to some extent … their Qusai’s who
are going to be significantly higher … and I do
this is an investment and and it’s an investment in
the community … what is to me a community asset
and I remember when not be no came here I
I express it the same way that we should be in the business as a city council of investing in
assets that benefit our community and I’m I’m really proud
to see the museum doing this and and I know
they’ve been working on it for a long time so
I am going to support the capital request also think
it’s important to to point out that they’re going in
a building where we’re gonna earn development charges … taxes
are going to be paid that’s going to be coming
out of their their new rent so … I think
they actually a lot of skin in the game and
… I I I think … this is an investment
that we should make and I think for my consistency
… I and I agree to invest in a soccer
facility and … saw the benefit in that and certainly
I have to see the benefit in the children’s museum
it’s in ward four not happy about that I would
like to to find something in ward six but we’ll
talk about that in the future
thank you councillor squire and for college benefit as we
for we are referring to that funding ask … in
the budget amendment business case on page twenty five it
does that line their potential funding sources including the request
from the city of London six million dollars for public
sector including … the sealant to ask some point nine
million from private sectors … including individuals foundations associations and
groups for a total cost of their project of thirteen
point nine million just that’s in our report if anybody
needs reference it as well and some details associated with
it … councillor van Holst
thank you very much I’m having his board councillor helmer
is direction I I don’t think we need a list
of policies on how to spend this fun we can
just make a make a decision … and where we
get the money from which source isn’t isn’t as important
to me as as what we spend it on
I’ll be happy to second council layman’s … a motion
… at subsequent to this … because I think he’s
brought up something that will be worth discussing
so those are my my comment
and councillor Hopkins
thank you Mister chair for allowing me to speak again
and I just wanna make a couple comments have already
made them before but I think it’s really important to
… for us all to know that we do have
an amendment …
brought forward by deputy mayor helmer and if this is
defeated we don’t we cannot be visited so I did
hear some comments that … and I just want that
for clarification that … if if if we do lose
this and then the motion so brought forward can we
come back to this debate of because I I do
think this is a reasonable
way to move forward it’s a slow process and it’s
important … that we sort of understand the rules …
moving forward here so I’ll just wait for the chair
so just I’m I’m a missile is Adams apologize councillor
Hopkins because I was trying to get the answer to
your question about reconsideration so what we have right now
is we have an amendment on a motion at the
moment is defeated we go back to the main motion
… other amendments could be made … an identical amendment
… later on … may require a reconsideration although because
we’re at the same meeting and same committee it’s a
majority vote
I just appreciate that clarification thank you
… and I let you go on this because this
a second time because there was no speakers list however
I do have some first time speakers now and …
councillor van Meerbergen Peloza and Peloza
thank you chair
not only is this a good investment for our children
answered it more generally it’s a great investment for our
community it’ll pass back in spades it’ll pass back for
years and years to come so I think it’s …
it’s an exciting development … and it has no impact
on the current tax rate so very supportive
thank you councillor Peloza
thank you I just wanna recognize that the Charles museum
has give up their time to come in watches in
person today and thank you for that and thank you
for their service to the community
as a museum conservator in a previous career it’s nice
when you see so many people … table having invested
interest in certainly learning that hot almost half of the
visitors to the site is coming from outside London and
rippling in those regional dollars that we need
looking at their proposal I’m glad to see the success
we capital campaign and their risk mitigation and there to
councillor squire there is a line of credit I see
they have lined up from TD already
so there are to taking care of that I’m happy
to supports … their funding requests and certainly if we
can pull on the tourism infrastructure fines that be wonderful
my only question is as I see with their risk
mitigation it is a big project they have before them
with a big two point two million they’re trying to
pull in from local donors
as they go through the process that our money be
granted out in stages as they progress are funding progresses
in should something happen and this not be successful this
time that any money that has been put in and
already taken … could be returned to the city is
done so
yes and I believe I treasure confirm that there would
be milestones attached to the … moving of the money
… which I think would provide the relative projections that
you’re talking about
I have cancer Lehman again because I have no other
first time speakers
on the matter … just want to clarify … if
we supported … councillor helmer is … amendment I could
go … make another moment dealing with just the …
funding side from the … economic development count or find
I’m gonna get some clarification for councillor helmer on his
intention so I know whether that is counter I believe
counter help there’s clear intention is not for this to
be granted are in any sort of proportion are in
… repairable granted a certain proportion that it would be
basically a right funded … cal’s armor can you confirm
that that is the full intent of your amenity made
I tried I tried to let this go earlier and
when you major ruling about how this as should be
handled … my own view is that there seems to
be almost no disagreement about whether should be finance from
the tourism infrastructure to refund or very little disagreement that
the matter that councillor Lehman is talking about is what
portion should be finance from the economic development reserve fund
and how it should be paid out I see those
existing things that people can have different views on so
you know I would think you could do with this
one and then you could do with the subsequent one
which is about on this part to be alone in
that part to be a grand because but I’m talking
about is nothing to do with loans or grants it’s
it’s just wears a source of financing for the grant
given councillors contexts how we could proceed as we could
… passing approve his and then you could make your
motion to … provide a portion of had the portion
related to the economic development reserve find as a potential
other speakers on the amendment the councillor helmer has made
on source of financing
mayor holder
but just thank you chair just one thing I I
certainly was of the view that councillor helmer was talking
that to as he was talk but the proportionality of
the of the of the monies that when we’re working
from the initial premise of the motion this was an
amendment that the other terms and conditions that applied to
the primary motion would apply so this would be a
grant and I thought the what we were voting on
was not just fortunately but but that this would be
… that this would be granted … without … alone
feature to it
… if that’s not the case I’d I’d I’d like
to know that because we can
we can do this and it would be the second
motion again and that’s very polite but I and and
I’m not here presuppose the will of council
it’s strikes me that that what this will do is
end up as another secondary series of dialogues around how
we arrange the funding for what appears to be a
relatively strong should strongly supported … … case here so
with all of that I
you know I’d like to I’d like to get clarity
from … councillor helmer
that or maybe even I you can you can do
an amendment to the amendment if that’s necessary I know
that I’ve read the bylaws bunch times now so …
with that that this be I mean if what I’d
like to do if if that’s not his intention I
would … I would like to move an amendment to
the amendment was limited discussion but that’s not for me
to say not for me to say and I know

that … this that this all be deemed to be
at granted money with no long table feature
unless unless sorry I missed the … customers pretty consider
the last yes I have a point of order which
all the with a severity
Turner thank heroes for sign officer
councillor helmer so the motion is to provide a grant
his stated that he’s not willing to entertain an amendment
to provide alone … so amendment … are for the
subsequent vote to provide long would be contrary to the
more may motion on the floor and therefore if alone
is intent that it would have to be defeated the
motion that councillor helmer is putting forward here I would
when there is no there is no motion for a
alone on the floor so I don’t think it needs
to be … discussed … entertained that can come as
you ruled previously … subsequent to this motion correct councillor
helmer and then I’m going to sort this out
but I tried to say earlier and president not doing
very well is that the only thing I’m trying to
change is the source of financing for the
grant I also believe and I’m not talk I’ve tried
not to comment on the idea of loan because that’s
our dealing with right now and I also believe that
subsequent motion could be entertained separately because it is a
different idea and and it’s not really relevant to the
sources of financing for other loan or grant said okay
so through the mayor’s withdraw … and so let me
just be clear about how we will proceed so we’re
on the same page and then we can proceed that
way that everybody can get their ID on the floor
we can vote on it we can make their decisions
giving councillor helmer context we will make a decision on
the source of financing and then we will allow councillor
Lehman should you choose and if he has a seconder
to propose a division of part of that source of
financing to be a repairable loan in the amount that
you’re educated earlier and molecular eight when he makes motion
if there’s a seconder we will debate that if that
passes we we back to the main amended motion with
both of those could pieces in or not depending on
how the votes go and then we’ll make a decision
on the children’s museum and then we will have lunch
… so on councillor helmer said amendment in again just
for clarity you can vote on this and then
Selena can make his amendment
I have no other speakers
okay so I’m cancer homers amendment which for your recollection
is changing the source of financing from all from the
economic developers are fun to be one point five million
from economic developers are fine and five hundred thousand from
the municipal accommodation tax the city’s portion of it that’s
what we’re voting on and I will open the vote
on that amendment
and can our treasure just ensure that we have the
names of the funds correct before we vote on this
if you’re refresh your screen and click current item and
… you can’t see
can you look up here make sure we have the
names of the funds correct before we passes
that’s affirmative yes good okay all right we can vote
closing the vote the motion passes 12 to 3
okay so we have decided on the division of the
source of financing … cancer Lehman according you on the
speakers list
I would like to put forth a motion that the
portion of the one point five million from the economic
development fund be … put through as a loan and
and … knowledge meant of
in the … CSI information that they are a charity
… that the loan the interest free however I do
believe there should be some … sort of debt financing
involved as this … allow other things to be developed
on the road I think they’re gonna be wildly successful
… so my motion would be to have five hundred
thousand interest free loan as a portion of the one
point five million … from the economic development
is there a seconder for that motion
councillor van Holst I have councillor Turner on the speakers
I think it was presiding officer appreciate that council’s motion
I don’t think it makes a lot of sense unfortunately
because we’re already providing operating fund grants to us so
the operating fund grant and then we’ve got a …
interest free loan then we’re just cycling the money around
back to ourselves it is I if we really wanted
to do that then we’d probably call back to and
so it to me it it’s it’s not the most
appropriate way to do it I’d much rather go for
was just grant silence with much councillor helmer than councillor
just very briefly M. there is unfortunately a lot of
work involved in setting up one of these interest free
loans you know the city is not … bank and
is not in the business of of doing a lot
of loans to people … OP one awful we do
is we pay people right with a lot of suppliers
for work that they’re doing for us and we make
grants occasionally to people … for other purposes we really
do not do a lot of loans and the one
that was given to the palace you know in retrospect
it was good because we dealt with actually in infrastructure
problem with the walls and that I think was really
helpful but this is a one hundred thousand dollar grant
is paid back five thousand dollars a year for twenty
years interest free it’s a lot of overhead for what
is really of a relatively small loan and I know
we just from talking finance staff in the folks at
the palace that was back and forth and back and
forth and all kinds of paperwork you know to make
sure that we’re executing it very diligently and and the
size of the loan it doesn’t really affect much paper
you have to do you have to do a lot
and then I think that it’s … more will work
and it’s really worth and and I think this is
a very well suited thing for economic to owners or
funding and tourism infrastructures are funding as a grant and
I think that’s the best way to do it so
I encourage my colleagues to support that
councillor Lewis then councillor van Holst and councillor squire
well I will say … did … to what councillor
helmer just expressed to us and and I want to
follow up on what … councillor Turner a mention I
agree with him fully … … in terms of the
children’s museum has already made significant progress in and I
appreciate them taking the time to give me a presentation
I’m sure they did to other councillors in terms of
altering their ongoing sources of funding so that they are
have essentially gone from sixty percent of their funding being
… public funding and forty percent being private they’ve they’ve
basically flip that bar and they’re they’re closer to sixty
percent private funding through their memberships in user fees and
things now and and less reliant on public grants than
they ever have been sold by asking them to to
repay a portion of this as an interest free loan
really only holds back their ability to potentially in the
future … require even less from us from the community
grants they’re doing great work and they’re they’re changing the
model and and I face that they’re gonna put this
money to good use so I’m not in support of
asking them to pay it back and it have all
that overhead … in maintaining that agreement with them in
the meantime
councillor van Holst thank you very much
is that signing papers … may seem complicated we do
it a lot … in this is half a million
dollars of the one I would say taxpayers money but
also realize that the
our mission if again if we look at the idea
of a mission critical thing which is what we did
with the Palestinian wanna make sure that we save the
walls … and we did … in this case we
want to make sure that the
children’s museum has the funds to to go forward and
if we grant them the money or we loan the
money they’re still able able to go forward but it
is a … a five hundred thousand dollars that
we can’t use for something else and again we’ve got
housing issues all these things coming up so … where
we can assist a business a charity a non profit
a community group with the just alone I think there’s
there’s value in in doing that because it allows us
to then use our other fines for other purposes and

I’m I’m of two minds on this because in in
a way I’d really just like to … forgive the
loan that we give to game to the palace theater
and … the reason we made it a
of an interest free loan is that just the political
climate at the time almost prevented us from giving them
a very needed grant that’s not the climate were right
we’re in right now but I do think we should
think about this as … as it as an option
even for merry mount when that comes up I think
this is something we should we should look at and
perhaps I can through you Mister chair to to our
staff just just ask them if
done the loan for the palace we are now in
a better position to go forward with those again or
is is it are we duplicating all the work I
was owners I was I understood that we service ourselves
up that in the future if we did this again
it would be a little easier than it was the
first time perhaps you’d answer that
go ahead
so through the chair is that there is a great
deal of work and we do have a template for
an agreement but there’s payment reconciliation there’s a number of
additional work steps that have to occur as well as
their so one of the things just to reference that
speaks to the pro south is since the time that
we did the loan to the palace theater we have
updated our reserve reserve fund policy and there is a
specific section on external loans that sets out some parameters
and … that possibly might be something that you may
wish to identify impact on the children’s museum because I
can’t speak to the ability to pay but certainly that
was something that as part of any long process we
assess the potential … sustainability to be able to repay
the loan over the period of time so based on
the policy as approved in twenty eighteen what it does
say is external loans … to public organizations and agencies
… the term shall not exceed five years so what
that and given that five hundred thousand would require a
hundred thousand dollar repayment each year that was set that
out to and … which set up the financial profile
of the poor and potentially could have impacts on the
line of credit that said they have already secured so
I can’t speak to the impacts on the children’s museum
but those maybe things you may wish to consider
okay thank you that was there is very helpful and
… and I do appreciate appreciate councillor Lehman for for
bringing this up because is another way to think about
how we how we fund I’m gonna skip the speakers
a singer councillor Lehman
thanks everyone for your your input
I I think … we do have to consider that
… as a source of financing I’ll ever … based
on from what I heard around the table … I
am I’m gonna with drama area my motion
speech by okay
I’m sure they’ll be other items I’m sure you can
use it on that … so …
there’s no … so we now what we are is
back on the main amended
motion to approve with the RT approved amendments to the
division of the financing sources do I have any speakers
on that
it’s already been moved moved and seconded because it was
an amended motion as any other speakers I would like
to I am comment on this the whole time if
colleagues would likely not definitely the chair
may hold up Padres the clarification of what we now
are looking to vote on since I thought we already
voted on we’ve already written proof them them in and
that we have not approved the actual case business case
we just amended it to have a division the source
of financing so what we will be approving now is
actually giving them the money in the way that councillor
helmer has divided under the kind of parameters of the
treasury said over multiple years with milestones
… if there’s because someone I’m just gonna make a
couple comments and been on this from the chair and
then we’re gonna break up this item … I’m supportive
of … giving that challenges in this money I appreciated
that when I met with them they had a very
detailed and thoughtful plan I think they’ve done a good
job of engaging with … with the range of of
donors multiple levels of government as well as private sector
… to make this possible and appreciate even their willingness
to entertain ideas in the future about increase partnerships with
the city I actually ask them with the entertainer have
a councillor on their board at some point in the
future given their importance of the organization the room partnership
and they were agreeable to having a dialogue with us
about that in the future so when councillors talked about
… you know holding to a counter skin in the
game not sort of thing on they are looking to
be I think a long term partner with the city
… this is one of the steps not process and
… to the point where we may even have a
closer partnership from … even afford perspective at that something
the council wants to pursue but that’s a discussion for
another time I’m very supportive this request and there’s no
other discussions we can open the vote on this
councillor Peloza
closing the vote the motion carries 15 to 0
what I call I said look for a motion to
… recess the meeting for a lunch break … for
half an hour until one forty five … councillor since
Louis van Holst all those in favor
thank you

all right we’re gonna get started again
so … I think to start the next phase of
the meeting it would be appropriate just to recap exactly
where we are so … to do that I’m gonna
go to extra Murray and he can actually display on
the screen with the magic spreadsheet budget chart machine …
to show where we are from a visual perspective as
well so maybe one update us and how far we’ve
come in what we have in the operating side left
through the chair … so we’ve dealt with … operating
budget amendment cases … numbers one through seven and …
as you can see on your screen … the twenty
nineteen tax levy increase … remains at two point seven
percent … and the average annual tax levy increase is
also at two point seven percent … so next up
on the agenda is the
websites transit for seniors budget amendment … I’ll just show
you very quickly what the impact of that is if
approved … soul turning that on if it were to
be approved … that brings the twenty nineteen tax levy
increase up to two point eight percent … on your
screen you’ll see that the average is still showing at
two point seven that’s a very high two point seven
it’s two point seven four five so … we’re rounding
up to two point eight but it’s just a bit
of a fluke in how excels doing around so …
essentially two point eight in twenty nineteen and two point
eight percent on average if budget amendment number thirteen is
okay thanks for the visualization how we can use the
tool to see the impacts of our decisions … with
that I have … case number thirteen which is a
new council direction subsidized transit for seniors … that report
we have in front of you is that lines details
on … reinstating passes as well as tickets and items
is there anyone who is capable of introducing that case
in the components of how it was broken down because
I know council asked for it to come back so
that council understands is before them in a decision options
that they have
through the chair
I so in this case what you see in front
of you … a is the response to council’s direction
… regarding re introducing the seniors bus tickets the information
that we have provided to you as a background as
the previous program and bald both bus passes and bus
tickets so we’ve given you what that total budget …
used to be in the break down of it and
then we have provided you with an estimate of moving
forward with just … buys tickets the increase over the
previous program for that portion reflects … the increase in
the older adult population in our community
thank you Mr Wilson … so this is something I
was asked to be brought here … I would look
to council to see that there’s a mover or seconder
for business case number thirteen councillor van Holst
I’m happy to move this case seconder councillor Salih …
so what we’re moving is a reinstatement of the …
discounted tickets correct … only and … I’ll open up
for discussion
well councillor Hopkins us thank you Mister chairman if I
could go to staff actually I’m I I apologize okay
as rentals moved it so I’ll let him speak for
some of the to you immediately second
but that’s fine thank you very much Mister chair and
of course …
just historically this is this was a piece that …
we move re remote we removed when we introduced the
… the low income bus passes and … of course
are chair and advocated to leave this part in because
it it wasn’t a great amount of money and it
seemed like
any people were interested in it over the over the
campaign period when I was talking to people … I
realize that many many seniors wanted to have this reinstituted
because they don’t use … they would make use of
the pass they they hurt you by a couple strips
of tickets a month and travel a couple times a
week and … this was adequate for them so I
think that it’s … there was such demand we should
reinstate there’s also point out that I think the net
impact may be a little less than this because the
people who purchase these tickets will not purchase the bus
pass which were which were
we have to provide a fair bit more money for
so I don’t I don’t know if we know yet
what the implications of that … program are
but to
is there is to staff having a room information on
how many seniors would be purchasing our have purchased the
the bus passes
the selection
a yes through the chair approximately thirteen percent of the
participants of the income related transit program our seniors sixty
five and older
well the thank you so I would I would expect
that … certainly a percentage of them … we would
offer tickets which would be I think a lower a
lower cost to us
as is as a city as well so this seems
to me like a cost effective approach and certainly one
that would be welcome among our seniors
I have on this because this councillor Hopkins Lewis and
squire thank you I’m just following up on comes councillor
van Holst question … through you too to staff on
the the … the percentage of thirteen percent of low
income our seniors
no so if I can just have clarification and also
just … wanting to know when we introduce the low
income has we decided to almost try it and see
where we would go in if if … for those
of us that weren’t there and for those of us
that weren’t there and need further … a further update
… you to give it thank you
it is through the chair so the way that the
… … income related transit program was established was …
I through … creating one that was about income and
eliminating … a program that was age based which was
the seniors pass at that time there was also discussion
about the … low vision program that was capped as
is and so all of the funding from the …
existing subsidies transit program … that was focused on seniors
was redirected to the low income … program there was
a commitment to run that program in conducting evaluation and
return to the twenty twenty multi year budget discussion …
with the results of that evaluation and some recommendations about
where we might go next which we are currently working
through in terms of that … evaluation to answer your
question about … low income so in London two point
five percent of older adults … are below the low
income cut off after tax thirteen percent of those that
participate in our low income transit program are older adults
thank you and just one further question … that the
… conversation can still take place in the for your
budget with … seniors discounts if we like if if
we can go … we can … have the discussion
here but we could also have a through the for
you process
through the chair I certainly that’s absolutely council’s prerogative I
will note that … civic administration noted in your business
case … our intention to look at a … single
… subsidize transit program through the multi year budget …
we now have a very complicated … mix of good
programs but it’s … low vision free for children under
twelve another percentage reduction for income use pass and potentially
a seniors pass
complicated and confusing so we would likely bring forward a
single … transit program … through the multi year budget
thank you I have councillor Lewis
thank you Mister chair and and thank you councillor Hopkins
Raskin that question because I appreciate the answer that we
got from ms Livingston … I will concur with councillor
van Holst I heard this a lot … in the
six month engagement campaign that we did last year called
an election for a lot of seniors it more to
you don’t see the value in a pass they just
simply don’t ride transit enough to pay … even for
that low income pass … that subsidized for them they
are using the boss once or twice a week …
they’re going to get groceries and coming home there maybe
going to church or going out to to visit a
friend and that’s it so as councillor van Holst indicated
a couple of strips of tickets will often last them
a month a month and a half … these are
folks who are on fixed incomes largely Canada pension and
old age security … some of them are … residents
of London housing because they need geared to income or
subsidized housing accommodations due to their income levels this would
be a very good thing … however I am concerned
about the number of … individualized transit subsidies that we
have and I’m concerned that every time we want to
raise … ridership and promote transit use in the city
it’s coming council for money instead of the LTC …
reviewing their ridership growth strategies and and frankly their revenue
streams … it’s been ten years since there’s been an
adult fare increase at the LTC … I think that
they have a role to play particularly as we move
into the multi year budget process … in coming back
in and clarifying to us how they’re going to help
us find these things because we can’t just keep adding
to it but I see absolute value in the bus
tickets for seniors … some gonna support this … but
it’s with the reservation that we cannot continue to have
… these ad hoc … subsidies for transit we do
need a comprehensive plan and I hope that time my
colleagues will support this as a as a bridge …
to moving to a single subsidized transit strategy in the
multi year budget
councillor squire
I said on the LTC was of a that councillor
helmer salt from the point of view of of London
transit is quite correct that every every and you should
have with return with with regard to boss passes a
reduced cost bus passes the cost is being entirely borne
by the city of London it’s it’s not something that
the LTC is saying it will
we’ll cover part of that cost and and it’s getting
to be expensive I think the last numbers I heard
it was getting close store over a million dollars that
we’re sending over for these bus passes the good news
on the bus passes always if we’re looking at ridership
is I think the numbers were looking at this year
for ridership increases are about three point five percent which
is exceptional I think in the current environment and and
we know we’ve sold for instance over twenty five hundred
I think of the use bus passes and you’ll remember
before we started all this we only had four thousand
plus passes in the city of London so these programs
to work but I think … I think the timing
on this is somewhat difficult I was hoping because the
LTC has arrived at strategy and this was part of
their ridership strategy and I was hoping as a member
of the LTC I could talk to them about bearing
part of the cost of this … by we’re not
gonna have that opportunity if we pass it today because
we’re gonna be paying for so I think as a
bridge it’s good … and it’s certainly something I don’t
know if I’d be allowed back in cherry hill village
mall in
if I didn’t support this time they Love Me there
now but I mean you know it could all change
… not love but they tolerating … we’ll but I
think we’re gonna have to come to the point agreements
Livingston we these routes house that we tested out and
we said is it are they going to work …
and we’re going to have to decide what are we
going to keep what works and what doesn’t work but
you know the evidence is out there that if you
get used young people on a bus if you get
them riding under twelve as teenagers and this was at
the last meeting they will continue to ride buses so
these these bus passes in my view are great strategy
… it’s very difficult to say you know we’re going
to continue to to provide really low cost plus frat
houses to university students in London but not to our
own students are in secondary school so I look for
to a larger discussion about this at the LTC in
here but I’m hopeful that in the next budget process
the LTC will step up to the table a little
bit in terms of saying you know will allocate part
of our budget to this and whether that comes through
… increasing fares or something like that I think that’s
a discussion that has to happen and that the city
shouldn’t just keep writing the full check on all of
there holder
thank you very much first question staff because I want
to see if I qualify how do we define seniors
residents said as the oldest living member of council I’m
asking this question
is there something
if they are they’re not going to take the bus
I’m sorry
hello I’m happy not to answer that question but I
we follow council’s direction and it was sixty five plus
I don’t qualify
which in one way is actually very good
look I’m I’ll support this I’m very mindful of
of as we try to
provide a thoughtful
presentation as citizens
I think this shows respect for seniors you many on
fixed incomes … and artistry open and and certainly not
exclusively of the community … I’m not sure that I’m
not sure that
any focus on
fares that LTC might to change is going to be
the basis for any kind of subsidy for this purpose
here but I understand the rationale behind it so I
do agree that we need to have more full some
discussion on … on the list on LDCs strategy knowing
that … coming back to my comments earlier this morning
at another venue we talk with the need for a
greater transit areas that …
… that are being currently serviced or service well so
they will at some point because I think as we
work towards … the multi year plan we’re gonna be
working towards … issues about how we … support …
the LTC and how the LTC supports our broader community
… but having said that I just wanted to it
on the backs of seniors
councillor Salih
famous chair and I want to support this obviously …
to have a great by large population of seniors in
my ward and … they’re quite very active and similar
to a kind of councillor squire said I was worried
about my honorary line dancers seniors find answers membership so
so I’m still good for council now I think I
will continue … with welcome me there on the only
question I had for maybe I I know I I
talk to councillor helmer about this squires also free to
ask and answer this question is …
at our the LTC … hopefully eventually leading heading towards
reloadable ticket passes … what I mean by that is
the individual tickets I just try to be mindful try
to build a green I wonder if there’s some seating
opportunities when if you can have one physical car that
might have six
individual bus ticket trips and I could just be reloaded
two times I’m not sure if one of them have
those answers today and maybe our might have something
councillor helmer
yes the as part of the smart card program which
is …
said dissipated program internal LTC history … part of it
is stored value on the card so the eight half
individual fares stored on the card and use them on
my one rather than to buy tickets paper tickets that’s
not available yet but hopefully will be in the future
okay and I just wanna say that this is select
might by residents are very pro green does a question
they wanted to be I so thank you
councillor Turner
I think Mr sorry officer up is so when we
debated this last term … and got to this position
one of the rationale was … an income test based
on ability to pay rather than just reach an age
threshold … over the course so since we’ve implemented that
… as my colleagues have said we’ve heard near full
I think that’s probably an understatement …
and so it was important to listen to constituents as
they called and concerned about the changes in the impact
that had on them … in the one thing that
a … is seem really common with most of the
people who called me was they were just over the
like a cut off … and so they were just
disqualified from being able to access … the low income
transit past the second part of course for them was
… suddenly having to put it for those who did
qualify recognize a change the status in life were suddenly
they are considered low income or maybe through their whole
life they hadn’t been and hadn’t had to rely on
any public supports in now by accessing low income transit
pass they had to change that status for themselves and
their minds and actually kind of go cap in hand
… to someone to prove their income to say they
qualified for a lower income subsidy
so I think this goes a long way because when
I think about … shoot likely are the users a
low income transit passes we just heard a large number
of seniors … the reality is that I think this
probably doesn’t even have as much of an impact at
the end of the day … in terms of our
financials you will have a big impact to them …
when we take a look at is a senior who
would be eligible for twenty five percent discount on tickets
using the bus five days a week that would save
twenty dollars a month
that’s the that’s a good savings for someone who’s on
a fixed income and we’re gonna be debating about what
this this rate looks like at the end of the
day and we’re talking about if we were to cut
it in half from where we are at two point
seven percent to down to one point three five would
be saving thirty five dollars a year per household
not twenty dollars per month per individual so this has
a fairly significant impact on the individual level and …
and really is something that I think I can get
behind and I think it’s important I’m really glad miss
Livingston I talked about taking a look for the multi
year budget about how do we harmonize this thing because
this is been a recurring concern for me we’ve been
using different sources of financing reviews of pilot projects we’ve
done all of this
it comes down to it we talk about transit and
councillor Lewis talked about what’s happening over at the LTC
I think we’ve got take a look at what we’re
and how we fund transit in general because we are
one of the lowest funders
I’ve transit in the province
the lowest funders
I’m per capita basis transit the province
and so
in part we are kind of choking on transit system
and … all these programs tend to be municipal subsidies
it’s adding to the subsidy but we’re still well below
what our peers are and we’ve got this habit London
to say where is the middle let’s be there are
nor close to that
… we’re not leaders in this … we’re we’re just
kind of finding your way through all of this I
think all of these things that are good to trying
to feel out to say how can we increase ridership
where we find the sweet spot how do we get
Londoners moving throughout the city
this is one way to do that and I think
at as I said I think it’s … inappropriate measure
and I think it will have a big impact for
those who need it most
thank you councillor Turner councillor Morgan
thank you colleagues and I’m glad to hear the comments
from colleagues I know when … I brother a motion
for last year and councillor squire seconded it to do
this … a lot of the questions that I think
… even councillor Turner has mentioned you know we’ve heard
for constituents Arismendi unanswered questions that time today those questions
seem answer that was a was a one vote difference
to bring it back at that time and I think
you know in the interim I’ve certainly heard from seniors
as councillor Turner has a people who are in that
his position of being a just a little bit above
the threshold and and not in a position I also
going back to that first debate …
no the ridership is important to the LTC as well
and and I had heard from constituents who said this
will be the difference to me taking the bus your
three or four times or one or two times and
so the discount can actually maybe impact how many times
someone can afford to go out or use the bus
when they’re in that situation where those dollars at the
margins matter I don’t think that this is going to
cause a whole bunch of people who are in a
position to be able to afford you know their own
cars or their own vehicles to change their habits dramatically
… they’re probably still by the full bus passes if
they like to use transit that they have their own
vehicles they won’t but there is a group of people
who this may be an influence the number of times
and actually take transit in ridership is incredibly important to
things like funding from other other levels of government so
when we initiate programs that have the potential to help
people ride the bus and
we you happen to land in a good year where
that’s a base year for government funding then sometimes you
know that actually pays us back … in our positioning
in those funding arrangements … and I will say I
do echo my colleagues concerns about … the way that
we’re starting to fracture the fair system and that the
the municipal government is kind of interjecting in that the
L. T. sees … fare structure … it would be
great if we could have a coherent structure down the
road and maybe a different way of discussing with the
LTC where maybe all these transfer programs are just added
to their base budget and then we agree on a
fair structure that is acceptable to municipal council and it’s
maybe a little cleaner and easier to administrate obviously that’s
a big discussion that would require a lot of work
but down the road maybe that’s the way we can
go where we instead of finding just the passes and
and creating structures we can just give that money over
to the LTC and have some sort of general agreement
on their overall fare structure … that suits our priorities
… living for as well so thank you and how
certainly be supporting … this particular amendment
thank you councillor
sure told counseling that councillor Hopkins is next Gen and
thank you Mr chairman thank you for your comments as
well and I recall last council when we did take
away the seniors pass I I I I heard a
loud and clear from the community that … we should
not be doing this and I I wanna just reiterate
… again what councillor Turner said about
as being the lowest
… funder of transit the municipality we we can do
more … to promote we are going to be coming
at an aging population as well and I think it’s
going to become even more important be already now is
starting to … have a great a popular as seniors
population compared to zero to fourteen year it sold so
and it’s only going to become … greater and the
need therefore will become greater I’m glad as we go
into the for your budget will be looking at hopefully
harmonizing all these … different ways that we are funding
but for now it’s a good start it sets the
tone increasing ridership is where we we need to go
to and … very supportive of this motion
councillor Peloza
thank you for the opportunity to speak to this and
certainly as civic works committee I did speak out against
this motion … having raised concerns always listening and grateful
for the staff report before us to help shed light
on it
certainly we know that party doesn’t discriminate based on age
knowing that thirteen percent of the writers for use in
this … subsides pass are the seniors were still leaving
out of eighty seven percent of those people for using
the passive aren’t seniors and as we speak of these
people taking the low income jobs trying to get to
work meeting to motivate them
potentially we’re not giving them a fair way to get
to work
certainly also having campus as my new hobby all summer
you heard from everybody you heard senior saying I need
it and I just missed the cut off can you
help me with that and then you had other senior
saying well I’m a senior I’m I hate to use
the word entitled but they did so I will use
in title as well that they hit the magic age
and they should have it and that’s for my concern
lies if we have money in the budget we’re looking
at I would ask council to consider raising the low
income cut off that everyone could equally have the opportunity
to participate in this certainly or else which about seniors
and give it to seniors you’re always gonna be sixty
four sixty three instantly the senior still working would be
excluded from the benefits we’re trying to give them and
if we did it based on the monetary issue of
income I was to be more inclusive
one second round again councillor Lewis and that’s the end
of my speakers this someone else wants to speak just
get my attention
thank you Mister chair and … through you I want
to thank councillor Turner and councillor Hopkins for their their
comments about the level of funding we provide … for
transit in the city … one of the the request
that I’ve had from constituents in and in fact a
recent during the campaign as well is around bus shelters
and Mister chair did you know that right now LTC
plans for three bus shelters year and when we talk
about an aging population … they are not able to
sit out in the elements necessarily as easily as a
younger person can they they would like to see those
creature comforts at the bus stops as well so I
think that the … the discussion around how we fund
transit moving forward is an important one I think it’s
a good investment to be making in our community …
through you I wanted to ask … and perhaps miss
Livingston’s the best a member of staff to respond to
this … does staff actually need some direction from council
… to engage in talks with the LTC about harmonizing
and and reporting back to us on a harmonized …
subsidy structure … would that be helpful or do you
already have that in process
something sent
I through the chair I a I think we’re going
to be undertaking that work anyway were right now in
the process of evaluating the current program so I’m not
feeling the need for a specific direction I think you’ll
also see … a hook for that kind of thing
in the draft strapline work that was tabled so that
may also give you some comfort that it’s it’s there
Hey for the okay … that exhausts the speakers list
… we have this … councillor helmer
thank you
college will know that I supported taking away the discount
for seniors
in the past and certainly I was on the receiving
end of a lot of feedback about that and I
wanna be clear but the difference that we’re talking about
and the regular take it is a dollar ninety the
senior stick is a dollar forty three
I see done forty seven cents cheaper … for you
for each of these tickets
and one of the things I said at that time
is you know taking the bus right now a dollar
ninety to ride the bus … it
across the city ninety ninety minute transfer it’s pretty deal
it’s pretty far away again around city for everybody …
without any discounts at all and I didn’t I didn’t
like the way we had a for where it was
fear sixty four years old and you were making less
money and you’re sixty five and you’re making more money
at the person sixty five is the one is in
the disk
and I just and think that was fair we solved
a lot of that fairness problem by introducing the low
income tax which it doesn’t matter how old you are
and if you qualify based on income a you even
get the discount and it’s a steeper discounting what seniors
were getting before and as you can see there are
some low income seniors were benefiting from that program now
so I think we we really improve things with the
changes we made last time
and you know there are that there’s this sort of
subset of senior of riders who are not taking it
all the time and they are taking … the on
these tickets and you know what it comes down to
do I wanna put more money into the transit commission
for property taxes and cut the price for people wanting
yeah like generally speaking I’m support of that I do
think that this is not … the longer term solution
I have raised the transit commission I mention it here
a before that as part of the fair and grow
strategy and we wanna look at a lot of different
options and not just harmonizing the for discount programs but
also our administering and I think the one one option
that is promising is print potentially taking advantage of the
full cards provided by the province is this innocent Harley
provincially administered is paid for provinciales already existing and you
if you don’t have a driver’s license you get a
full occurred for ID why don’t you have a driver’s
license doesn’t matter right and we could use that as
a way to get … a group of people who might want to benefit from a transit discount so say
you’re an older person he can’t drive anymore because you’ve
lost your vision or you have other health concerns are
preventing from driving
translator only option to get around for away and that
we don’t have to have an age based system we
don’t have to have an income based system we can
just have a system that’s identified people who could get
a discount for transit similarly if you have a disability
that prevents you from driving you’d also have a full
card and you can also get a discount and it’s
just a very simple and I think it shows some
promise us and that’s necessary we’re gonna land but I
think that’s what councillor squire is referring to are that
we’re we’re looking at a lot of different options in
the fair strategy in the transit commission is gonna have
to figure out how to integrate a lot of those
things that I think it’s going to result in something
simpler in the meantime you know bring back the ticket
so that people get around for dollars forty seven is
that a dollar ninety I’ll support that and right now
councillor Cassidy
thank you Mister chair … I’m glad not councillor Peloza
spoke because those are some of my concerns as well
and so what people
what people are are may not grass or may be
overlooking is that
we’re talking about tickets verses passes so
a low income senior that chooses to use a pass
rather than the old tickets is system that actually getting
at a greater discount of thirty three percent thirty six
percent discount compared to the tickets that were at twenty
five percent discount so councillor helmer brings up a good
point as well if somebody is living … below the
low income cut off and they’re not a senior
they might still not be able to afford to subsidize
passed so it would probably be eat in there better
interest to have a ticket system as well so we’re
we’re we’re time implementing error reduced fare for the casual
user of transit … based solely on age
and I I also have heard from senior is that
… that are right there right at the cut off
but as councillor Peloza it rightly points out there a
lot of people that are right there not and it
it doesn’t age doesn’t discriminate that way

I’ve heard a lot of the debate here I’m
I’m inclined to not support this budget amendment but I
haven’t completely made up my mind eighth nine no I’m
the last person on the speakers list so I guess
I better hurry up unless somebody else wants to jump
in again because that that often happens …
we did what we could with the with the like
… subsidized past that we came up with the original
iteration was a finite number and first come first served
if you didn’t come and apply for your or subsidized
past you missed out after we hit the cut off
number and that was because staff had an existing budget
based on the subsidized past that was it in existence
at the time which included the seniors and CNC and
I be pass as well so
staff had this budget and we said go fix this
… subsidized transit pass and make it more inclusive and
make it target low income people and but we didn’t
say and and hear some more money to do that
so they did what they could within that that previous
budget which was I think about six hundred thousand dollars
… wh when they reported back with what they could
do what on that limited budget … there was quite
a lot of blow back from the community we talked
about it for a really long time we ended up
going with the past that we that we have today
… we didn’t really identify at that time a source
of funding is kind of open ended which is it
considered a budget bomb I believe from I’ve been I’ve
learned that word over the years … so this is
how we got to where we are today and …
I I agree with councillor Peloza that and at the
age based number is is is not ideal in my
you got your wish there’s another person on the speakers
list Michael van Holst are cancer and also I think
you would be great if we could come up with
something that was completely fair for everybody but just given
the nature of of life it’s probably not going to
be the case … the point is good that the
sixty four between sixteen for fifty five seems arbitrary however
… the odds of someone being on a fixed income
at the age of sixty five is much much greater
insulated sixty four and … and we’ve seen that they’re
really asking for us to respect that and … and
I’m happy to do that
okay move out because of a member and
if we take all of these what are called a
boutique subsidies
what is the level of subsidy when you start from
ground zero so
with all levels of government contributing we start right from
the get go with a thirty is it thirty percent
the subsidy for public transit
before you start adding in the boutique stuff
that may take just a minute for someone to develop
those numbers on which like me to go to the
speaker with a look appearance are joining could you comment
we’ll get we’ll come back to you and the answer
councillor squire at one of the things I just wanted
to mention I had before the might be helpful is
virtually every province where where there are subsidies affairs the
preferential government is making a contribution to that so when
you when you hear a province it offers free bossing
for children or free bussing for students the provincial government
is stepping up and providing some money for that’s a
challenge for us is that doesn’t happen in Ontario and
so that’s why were in my view like I think
that’s why we open in the still and we get
nothing in terms of operating costs … from the province
that went
councillor van Meerbergen and then we for staff okay there
any other speakers
thank you just one
never call past budgets of there was provincial contribution and
federal contribution
… towards transit systems so I recall right from the
get go we start with a thirty percent subsidy
so for the city doesn’t have these boutique these things
are on top of an already subsidize system is my
point and I I just like to know what what
that level is
I know we have a giant budget binder out and
it’s being gone through right now so we will get
the answer for you before without
councillor helmer
I can give you a rough sense for conventional transit
the the operating sadistic survey different for specialized transit
and as the council prior calls so the municipality in
two thousand seventeen and look at the end report which
is the year this finished on a budget number but
a finish number thirty seven percent municipal contribution to the
fifty one point eight is passenger revenue and other kinds
of revenues advertising anything like that and then eleven percent
of provincial gas tax so bridge a gas tax covers
or anything some of their capital the moon majority their
capital some of those operating
okay so we see nodding so there you go
so so is it fair to say that this is
an already sub site system
to the tune on I’m not quite sure was a
thirty seven percent
so whatever
okay so we we start right from base zero at
thirty seven percent that’s already subsidized so the tax payers
are putting this money in already
now as the case may be from this previous council
you know this group back group this group now another
and it looks like in just a few months it’s
all gonna change again anyway because of some kind of
streamlining or what have you so I’m not so sure
it makes much sense to do something right in this
instance … when really in the fact you may just
confuse the ridership specially if you do a big change
in just a few months so I I would suggest
that … this be referred to the next
… budget cycle we’re could be dealt with in a
complete way answer this piecemeal kind of … effort
see make a motion to refer … business case number
thirteen to the multi year budget
yes is there a seconder to refer councillor Peloza
we’ll have a debate on referral of business case thirteen
the next budget
councillor in Austin and councillor Salih
I think that’s clearly not what the citizens want so
I think it I’m a little against the referral in
just and hope to reinstate this this program as soon
as we can
councillor Salih
zero to vote against the referral I think what we
recognize you know seniors need … this now they’ve been
patiently waiting … I know I’ve heard from many seniors
that look forward to seeing this program reinstated as soon
as possible think we also all know it’s safe to
say that most seniors … are living on a very
fixed income and are struggling and doing their best to
make it a day in day out with the bells
and I’m growing costs that are sometimes outside of our
control in our purview and I think … this maybe
forty seven cents or a few cents here … but
I can assure you when you talk to seniors they’ll
tell you one dollar two dollars is a big deal
for them … in in in in impacts and whether
they decide to move ahead with making a new purchase
or being able to a little bit more so I
encourage everyone to vote against this … I I don’t
wonder if we could have that conversation down the road
but I think right now this is our purpose that
to do … there’s no point in making … you
know thousands of seniors wait attention Lee … when I
think the sentiment seems to be the majority is in
support of having this reinstated
are on the referral councillor Hopkins thank you … I
won’t be supporting the referral even though technically I am
supporting it because from what I understand everything will be
referred to the for your budgeting process this included I
think right now the the seniors passes what we’re discussing
for twenty nineteen will be in twenty nineteen and then
going into a for your budgeting process everything will be
referred so … in a way I’m not supporting this
but I am supporting it eventually
anyone else in the referral
hi it’s it’s moved and seconded so this is a
motion to refer business case number thirteen to the …
multi year budget process
no more they will open up for voting
closing the vote the motion is lost 3 to 12
okay referral fails … back to the main motion that
we have a mover and seconded this is case number
thirteen I don’t have anyone else on the speakers list
councillor Kayabaga
I just a question … because we’re talking about senior
tickets not the best pass are eventually going to talk
with the post parents or
… discs thing at tickets up for this budget and
this year the only thing that has been moved is
… reinstating a subsidized seniors ticket … the bus pass
could be discussed T. at some point … but that
that is the motion on the floor before us today
and just to make sure that … understood this correctly
… it does not take away the low income subsidy
or to use pass and the … children under twelve
writing for free
that’s correct this is a a separate budget item
thank you
okay anyone else before without
note that we have it … moved and seconded I
believe it was conserve and also councillor Salih
I will open up for voting
I just got a note if you to get a
little air mystery screen the votes are still coming in
it’s just popping up will screech
some people are getting a small error message after they
process the vote I want you can firm that both
are actually coming in
closing the vote the motion is passed 13 to 2
so that … includes business case number thirteen … Mr
Murray had provided that’s kind of an update on the
consequences of making that decision I believe if I’m correct
that moves both the annual increase and the average multi
year increase to two point eight and two point eight
from two point seven … although from what I understand
not by much … that is the remainder of the
components that I have for the operating budget amendments that
were driven I know a couple of colleague circulated motions
… so if they were related to the operating budget
this would be the time that you may want to
make those councillor squire
thank you very much Mister chairman I motion has been
circulated and … perhaps you should see if there’s a
seconder for it before I before I speak to it
it’s it should be before everyone … in paper form
just read itself sharp … that the city yeah that
the civic ministration be directed to bring for for musical
council’s considerations options would result in a reduction the proposed
tax levy increase for two thousand nineteen to two point
four percent it being noted the municipal council review the
set options presented and all other badges budget matters to
determine if it’ll implemented two thousand nineteen tax levy increase
of two point four percent
that’s … moved by councillor squire is there a seconder
for that particular motion
councillor van Holst
if I could ask what was the intention just so
we’re clear on the motion of the kind of reporting
back time frame on this particular motion I know we
have a next extra
we have time on Monday so I expected that if
indeed this is past that staff would have until Monday
to that come back with some options in it to
address this issue … the other option I suppose if
something council could do on that date is still we
did last year and say to them to to see
over the course of the next year our minds bring
bring matters forward or do things to bring it down
to two point four percent this is just a process
motion I’m not at I’m not asking councillor both for
anything in terms of it I just it’s it’s a
decision whether council to undertake that process
discussion on this particular motion
councillor van Meerbergen
I’d like to think councillor squire for for the motion
I think it’s … it’s a useful
… exercise during a budget a budget debate especially as
we’re trying to …
is fair as possible and get as close to inflation
is possible … for the tax payers …
my understanding reading this is this is simply … showing
us a possible pathway … as opposed to approving a
two point four right here and right now so it’s
just coming back with information for us
councillor Salih thank you Mister I’m I’m always inclined to
support a finding efficiencies or anything like that I know
in the past you know there was more … clear
kind of up the direction I guess and I put
it that way and I’m pleased with councillor squire is
coming from a I’m not sure it will staff be
able come back by my mom I guess Monday would
say this is where we can cut that essentially the
the hope I’m just trying not better in appreciate understand
I’m gonna interview that as a question for staff …
I see Mister a one
through the chair … this is a this could be
difficult to do to come up with options I think
we’re looking at around two point eight million dollars
1.$8000000 sorry
and … … in order to come up with that
we need to sit down and actually … work through
a whole bunch of issues and look at impacts as
council may be aware that this is the end of
a four year budget process that for your budget wasn’t
just considering inflationary pressures and consider additions to investments and
where the tail end of that now so … to
go back to just inflation on this piece of the
budget will impact because we’ve actually invested a lot more
in an additional services and that type of thing so
we actually be looking at actually cutting service unless there’s
some other revenue so we can come up with again
time wise it’s not a not a lot of time
… we we try we always try … but it’s
going to be difficult to do the other thing that
I would point out is that at the start of
the budget process council also gave us the task of
looking for four million dollars throughout that budget time frame
period and we’ve done that … issue we’ve been successful
we have another million dollars to go this year to
look for it so in addition to what this would
do the one point eight million is another million dollars
or two point eight million of rule is what would
be looking for this year to me that budget target
the you’d be establishing in addition to accommodating all the
investments and all the additional … and we just went
through another one I will the additional requests you put
on the budget so and that’s gonna put us in
a very difficult position moving forward in the next round
of multi year budget given what I see coming down
not as well so just wanna put that out that
… to really seriously consider this we will take it
back we will try our best but it’s gonna be
tied to do
the answer questions councillor yes it doesn’t thing for the
answer I think I guess as we can see with
the bay in me because squire might be able to
help formulate an answer when he has not an opportunity
to to answer but for me what would be helpful
is to know well if they wanted to I guess
essentially cut this or that or what have you specifically
are kind of I I recognize that maybe they’re just
looking for a bigger picture or if every area service
areas to come up with a report say this is
where we can cut this is the impact of what
that cut may look like … that’s an opportunity but
… you know I’m very cautious of heading necessarily in
that direction but I look for to the rest of
the big
councillor Turner
we’ll go in that order
thank you mispronouncing … we heard from a stray were
… the execute ability of its it is incredibly challenging
… and …
for the for lack of a better word than the
figure seems a little arbitrary … his if the intent
is to try to get us closer to the rate
of inflation well residential rates last year were one point
three percent increase that’s below the rate of inflation …
in the residential rate will likely be below the rate
of inflation if that’s the the of the bench marking
the standard that we’re aiming for and the question is
the affordability at at the residential ratepayers homeowners are worried
about how much … they’re out lane
and I think we’ve addressed that and we did that
really well
three years ago when we set out a pass to
make sure that the average increase of all class categories
was two point nine percent that it didn’t go north
of three percent and and through that we actually managed
to achieve less than what we’ve … targeted and then
in this finally … as we saw at the beginning
of this … the final year was going to be
north of three percent but averaging out to the two
… two point nine
this year we saw was a suite of recommendations that
staff worked really hard for to bring us down and
it was almost one percent from … from what the
projected was to were landing right now half a percent
so close … so but this is point four and
one of the motions just put us up point one
so we have to keep that in mind and and
and the mover the motion was the one that brought
for the motion that put us up the point one
that so …
the ballots on that is is something that I think
is really important
for us to to understand
as we talked about … the the bus passes a
second ago
twenty Bucks a month is impact to seniors on fixed
incomes who have … a challenging capacity to pay with
and we hear this all the time when we talk
about repairs twenty Bucks a month it’s a hundred and
twenty Bucks a year is the potential impact there this
will have the impact of about
but I think seventy four on it probably about ten
Bucks I think
over the … like three or point four percent at
ten to fifteen dollars I think someone that neighborhood so
the impact is not significant but it’s it’s … it’s
symbolic nice and that’s all I see it as and
that’s my concern with that I do appreciate where the
councillors coming from and bring this forward and always putting
pressure to make sure that we’re doing our best to
make sure that we are good stewards of our residents
funds and in the finding of municipal services I think
we’ve done that job so and so I’d encourage you
to … defeat this motion
councillor helmer
thank you so through the chair is a couple of
questions understand us for how we might be perceived
so this motion were to pass is the idea that
you know we’re we’re still not gonna be getting to
a council meeting show mention again … but
the staff would be providing us with information about what
these things might be
when exactly like tomorrow
on Monday morning just before the meeting
Mr Hey order miss part of the three through the
chair at my understanding is the council wants is for
Monday to be presented on Monday yes I mean that’s
what I heard and … … certainly is something we
will attempt to do if that’s what you want
let me just clarify why that’s happening is we we’ve
reserve Monday as a meeting should we not finish today
… we wind up recessing this meeting until Monday at
the proposed schedule time or close there at so I
I believe the in if this were to pass and
we were required to do that we would definitely need
to have the meeting on Monday to fill that requirement
which means we would be able to refer components the
budget over to therefore make decisions on the particular the
operating I would hope that we can still if this
were to pass we took over to go this way
proceed with taking care of some of the capital components
of the budget though … so that we can spend
our time here eat valuable a so that I think
I’m just trying to fi contacts I think that’s what
I interpreted as as the passport
sorry I wanna like councillor helmer continue
thank you so I’m I’m not supportive of this particular
recommendation I think I would would have been a more
interested in it if it happened a long time ago
that last time when we were dealing with the two
thousand eighteen … multi year budget and we knew that
two thousand nineteen was going to be a higher at
that point it was looking at was with three point
two percent at that time of these councillor Morgan
he said you know we need to make sure we
get it back down to the target that we had
right with two point nine and that direction was passed
by council back in December I think in two thousand
and seventeen and cat and then staff had time to
work on you know how we’re gonna get this down
and you we see the results of that we’ve got
a budget the was at three point two percent is
come down to two point seven through a variety of
things it is a some of them are provincial changes
that stopped enough all influence over other ones are things
that have been done internally to try to reduce the
pressure and what I’m what I’m saying is I don’t
like this particular way of handling it is that you
know the public is seen that right so the budget
was tabled back in December people able to look at
that stuff and give us feedback on with these are
the changes that are being proposed we had a public
participation meeting about what those changes would be I’m concerned
that this kind of quick turnaround of what is essentially
the same magnitude changes … with not very much opportunity
for anybody to look at including myself right is not
really the greatest way of handling it so and if
it goes through I mean I’ll look at whatever comes
forward and I don’t know what the at the ideas
are going to be if they have significant impacts on
answer is I imagine that we’re going to hear from
people that they’re not gonna like that some of those
changes and I think we have to make sure that
we’re providing you with a response Judy to give us
feedback on that I’m sure conscripted this but many times
… in discussions with that that that’s important part of
the whole process right now and if we gonna get
into really substantial changes which I would have another public
participation meeting
and so I reason I I you know I I
will knowing what the ideas are as hard to make
any judgments on I’m not going to support it at
this at this point
my speakers this is Marissa whole holder myself councillor van
Meerbergen councillor Cassidy
well thank you chair love can
… colleagues I think it’s clear that it’s always admirable
when we take the approach respect taxpayer dollars in the
comments earlier about finding efficiencies … this at this point
a motion like this to me just feels … to
lead in this process … what I think would be
appropriate especially when … our staff came through and in
this fourth year of the multi year … budget cycle
came in at … something less than … than what
it already been … set … in the four year
cycle and now we’ve thought about that back up by
at least some approvals have been done today I did
this this approach makes a lot of sense if we
were to consider it for the next step for your
… budget cycle I just think it’s it’s too ambitious
and I think it leaves too much pressure on staff
and I nor staff for card but I think it’s
going to be done and thoughtful way in this feels
a little bit
if nature is not the right word I would say
it to lead in the in in the process to
consider and it’s admirable and I respected … but I
would … I would prefer to see this going to
the next a multi year cycle
thank you mayor councillor Morgan
I yes colleague some a appreciate the opportunity to comment
on this one I couldn’t let it go in without
making some comments given that I made a similar motion
in the past to bring forward … both savings in
the multi year budget as well as … directed the
it will ended up being business case number one and
I agree that it is a very tight time line
… however I certainly support the and councillor who’s looking
to find ways that we can try to find savings
within the multi year budget that being said I’m very
conscious of our our staff times let me let me
provide an option for the councillors that would not necessarily
to late budget process but could be a consideration for
debate and discussion and that is really in the presentation
… we heard about … assessment growth … and the
Sir this the surplus and assessment growth that we will
be facing loud that it’s not going to be completely
reconciled but and I’m not myself support of … just
dumping that assessment growth piece on the tax base what
I am supportive of his using some of it if
possible because one point one three million of it was
actually one point
one point three five million of it was actually carried
forward from the previous year has been applied through our
policies brought forward and we still have a surplus in
the assessment growth … hot and so I would be
support of using a portion of those funds I would
not be supportive of using the entirety of those funds
because I do believe that we need to carry some
of it forward through the budget process into the multi
year budget and I honestly will tell you I actually
think we’re gonna need a lot of the space in
the multi year budget for this but if council’s are
looking to provide some tax mitigation at this point rather
than have staff come back with a whole big list
of things you can simply apply some small fraction of
the assessment growth … surplus to … to the tax
savings … and I would be out by my calculation
given the comments of Mr Murray said we’re probably about
a hundred or so thousand dollars away from making go
from two point eight to two point seven … it’s
a bigger chunk to get to the next one but
if your goal here is to lower the actual percentage
number you could probably get there with using even a
fraction of of the access and assessment growth provide some
tax relief again I would only be support of of
using a portion that has already gone through our policy
at least one year and by my calculation that is
a maximum of one point three five million again I
don’t think it needs to be that much but I
I offer that as a contribution to the debate rather
than go through this process of … trying to get
staff report back on something that might be very awkward
for them
thank you councillor Morgan councillor van Meerbergen
thank you and … thank you councillor Morgan … I
was I was going to suggest
… frankly something very similar like maybe half of it
… two point six three million surplus on to be
applied to the tax base
with that could be that could be part of what
staff could come back with with councillor squire is motion
… and we could
reschedule this Monday’s meeting the February 4
if that’s doable and that would give staff
more time in also give us time before we actually
set the budget which I believe is February the twelfth

anyone cast budgets we’ve done not a it’s not that
… in this so I would suggest I don’t know
if it’s doable
I don’t know if it’s still either yet … but
I know that we have reserved time on Monday and
I we would have to have the first just review
the schedule to see if there was time … on
another date schedule meeting would also have to circulate to
make sure colleagues can be there … the vantage Monday
is it was a reserve date so most people should
have that generally available but if the clerk in a
line what else we have at that point in the
calendar so colleagues are where I think that would benefit
the cancers question
through you Mister chair … depending on what time of
day on the fourth … you were speaking about we
do have a planning and environment committee meeting that day
sorry one meeting that day but that’s that’s in the
evening … so …
Arafat is your question or not
maybe so there’s a 4:00 meeting
so just maybe meet at at noon or something
I think we can deal with that subsequent to the
debate if we pass a need to give ourselves time
like will will will have to schedule the time in
whatever discussion about that but … appreciate this at the
cancer Cassie’s ex on the speakers list
thank you Mister chair three to staff … I wonder if … you can tell me what the current where
we sit with our infrastructure gap right now
through the chair we are actually working on the next
update to that that will be coming later on this
year but we’re still looking at the twenty ten report
which was approximately five hundred million dollars that … was
estimated at that time
thank you so that’s
basically things we need to fix that we don’t have
the money for budgeted right now
that’s correct we have a portion of thought to that
… we’ve been working towards but … that is what’s
on funded at this time we’re going through that iteration
will have a better update of what the projection is
based on revised replacement values but … we won’t have
an updated number tell that reports completed later this year
thank you interview Mister chair
so we talk about inflation and we talk about these
this is this is basically the consumer price index that
most people most households look
if within their cosco out household costs and so sometimes
their income doesn’t
go out go up along the same … scalar however
when as a municipality when we’re talking about some of
our costs so … are infrastructure costs for example they
don’t follow the consumer price indexes I cracked so the
cost to
cable road goes up differently compared to the consumer price
index is that correct
yes we’ve we’ve talked previously through the chair them the
municipal price indexes is a little bit different because the
basket of goods that the municipality purchases so steals roller
construction projects that this deal was a really good example
of through the chair if that we’ve had potentially increases
until that … is resolved by time just through the
contractual those kind of things are our own
collective agreements that kind of thing electricity so there are
a couple of key drivers I certainly feel was something
else so it is a different basket and and typically
tends to be higher than the CPI
thank you out so what happens in and then you
know I know there were a couple of years in
the past where there is zero percent … property tax
what happens to our infrastructure gap if we say maintain
costs of living are CPI we maintain that is the
benchmark or if we go bi lo that what happens
to our infrastructure gap then
through the chair is potential that the infrastructure grab could
grow and … what that would do is potentially have
an impact on your level of service and rest within
the city of London that we would need to manage
and and things would not be in as good repair
as what we might anticipate
thank you I’m okay so just last weekend in what
five find financial park road on Saturday morning there’s a
giant hole in the road there is a water main
break that’s that’s what happens when our infrastructure
when we don’t keep up with our infrastructure funding
I I’m I’m glad that councillor Turner brought up the
residential property tax levy increase for last year one point
three percent well below the rate of inflation
that means our commercial and industrial rates are slightly higher
but that doesn’t mean that London is not competitive as
a city and in fact our commercial industrial rates are
low lower than average in the province and we’re still
getting companies investing in London we just had a huge
announcement with maple leaf foods so are proper our commercial
industrial rates are not inhibiting investors from coming to London
in choosing London to set up shop are a residential
property tax rates are lower than average
I’m all for maintaining reason I’m not for taking the
lid off spending but we have a number of people
in the community and even on this and in this
horseshoe that talk about …
the basics let’s just do the basics while the basics
are avoiding water main breaks and digging up Fanshawe park
road in the middle of a busy weekend those are
the basics not not having to do those sorts of
things are at the beginning of our last for your
of this for your budget that we’re just finishing …
there was I believe the staff recommendation to increase our
our winter maintenance budget
and that
dot proposal was voted down we we were trying to
maintain our property taxes at a certain level and and
so that recommendation was voted down those are the basics
and so we can’t do that we won’t be able
to … increase our winter maintenance budget which I know
some councillors are in favor of doing if we’re just
going to have this strict adherence to to a number
when we know that the past council and staff have
worked very hard to maintain an appropriate level …
I’m all for suggestions on where we can reduce
costs where we can reduce services if we must …
but I’m I’m with councillor helmer on this this is
this is very sudden and last minute and and just
a number that’s thrown out there without anything to go
along with it so I can’t support the
councillor Lehman
thank you
the frustration I feel is that … … as a
new councillor … we’re beholden to … tax rate of
plan that was developed by the previous council
how are that’s
on the other side of that is I totally respect
the idea of a a multi year budget I think
that is prudent planning … to allow … services to
be provided and … physically … manager … superior physically
managed up process

hi … while I see where councillor squire is coming
from and I would be inclined to to want to
hear how it city of a billion dollar budget could
squeeze out a few more percentage points … I do
feel … that this is
hardest for me to say it’s not the time and
I’d like to respect the for your budget … however
… I do have a different … opinion about …
… inflation … our customers live within that inflation rate
… you know site refer to taxpayers as customers …
they look to us to provide a service … and
… a price range that they’re prepared to pay on
the last four years … we’ve seen … tax increases
above that … point … we’ve been able to offload
that on the commercial side … but eventually that houses
stop or we will not be competitive in attracting business
a long and … so …
that will be a discussion for the next for your
plan … over at this point … I would prefer
to just stick with the up the numbers of them
councillor Lewis and then councillor van Holst
thank you Mr chairman this is been a good debate
on a motion that I wasn’t sure we were gonna
help much debate on … I think … to cast
councillor cast these point and I think of raising it
things like
the US sewer lines in the water lines under our
roadways that’s basic infrastructure that we need to have investment
in and councillor Morgan reference this in his comments …
with the assessment growth I think it’s prudent for us
to leave the the bulk of that … in the
new multi year budget process it gives us room to
work on that infrastructure gap it gives us room to
work on some of this is the strategic priorities that
I suspect a number of us will be bringing forward
… whether they things we campaigned on or things that
we … field the city can just do a better
job on like winter road maintenance … so I would
like us to keep the majority of the assessment growth
… in the strategic plan … to as councillor Cassidy
said focus on those basics the the commercial and industrial
rates have been higher because we’ve been playing catch up
for years it was reversed it was the homeowner who
is bearing the burden of five and six percent increases
while the commercial and industrial rates were lower and the
previous council opted to re balance that in fairness I
think to the homeowner and I think that they did
a good good thing in doing that that said if
this motion is … defeated I a I just wanna
let colleagues know that I would be prepared … to
put forward a motion and if there’s a seconder so
be it … in light of council Morgan’s comments to
… have staff report back to us on Monday in
terms of how much would be required from the assessment
growth … carried over from last year … I don’t
want to put this year’s assessment growth and I think
that when you’re buffer is a good idea but how
much would be required just to bring us back to
two point seven … so that we at least control
the residents of London that we are trying to hold
the line on what we started the process with when
the open debate this morning on those topics so
whatever that might look like I I would be prepared
to hear from staff on that on Monday … but
I think two point force asking them to do
well frankly adding to staff cost to put in overtime
on the weekend to get back to us with numbers
that may result in things were not prepared to do
councillor van Holst
thank you Mister chair when our staff came for through
the budget is very happy where they where they ended
up and I’m sure they did a lot of work
in trying to find cuts and probably realize that when
they had come down below what was expected that was
that was a good time to stop
I will say that as as a council it’s very
hard to see into budget we can’t see very deeply
to what’s going on so … the
it’s hard for us to come up with ideas for
cutting so this is an interesting motion and that’s why
I seconded it I would certainly be very interested seen
what staff would do … in order to
to come down to a figure like this are really
just see what they’re what they’re ideas were what else
they could cut or where they would go if they
had to …
however it does it does seem like we be setting
them to … a pretty difficult task over over the
weekend … and I wouldn’t want them to have to
scramble to come up with ideas … maybe some of
them would be no heating council meetings I know I
don’t know but …
and it seems like a little too much work …
I am
I am like I said I
looking at what councillor Turner said this might save ten
dollars and of course I’m still two minds in the
budget I
I my brother charged have them pay ten dollars more
and give them same day garbage service … and we’re
already looking for some more things here so I am
pleased to well right but …
and I certainly don’t want to have them scramble for
for Monday maybe later in the in the process if
the if they have an opportunity it be it branches
to me here
if if there were ideas or if there were perhaps
there may have been things that they looked at …
and the when they were trying to cut down to
the two point seven that we had that they decided
not to cut the cut something versus something else maybe
finding out what some of those other things were would
be interesting but
having heard the arguments and I don’t think I would
set them to the task of of scrambling for for
this amount but never the less
I think given more time this is an excellent kind
of motion it’s along the lines of the ones that
you said we can either ask them to say just
go find the money and they can deal with their
own budget or say how would you get down here
and then we can see what they would do with
their own budgets since we can’t see into them ourselves
other speakers
so I have a motion that’s moved by
oh councillor van Meerbergen
I’ll tell you what is somewhat pretty much because I
would like to speak okay trip can spend Meerbergen
yeah I know we’ve heard a lot too
during this particular debate on but I think we need
to bring ourselves back to what’s being asked for here
and I’m sure the mover will us someone up nicely
but clearly we’re just looking for a pathway to get
us closer to inflation it’s not even to inflation last
occurred twenty nineteen on B. two point two
or not we’re not
pushing for zero … work we’re not talking about to
up Diliman blooming things breaking and all the rest of
it types break for a multitude of reasons a brand
new pipe can break up the fact matters the sewer
system and water system are funded separately from the property
tax we we we have a very hefty sewer surtax
and I’m sure most of us get our bills we
see it first hand … and we’ve had that for
several years to to look after the cost of sewers
and water and all the various pipes so that’s that’s
a subset that’s not part of the property tax …
we need to focus here on on giving the the
the pair the end user
the men and women and how to open that time
envelope with the tax bill and then pay it when
they’re not getting
very large to pay hikes if at all
and yet we’re coming to them with
over inflation increases year after year after year and
I think what some of us are saying is let’s
try and bring that in and if that means we
have stopped bring it back to us in a few
then I I think that so well worth well worth
are there any of the speakers before that councillor squire
some up
good councillor thank you Mister chairman I was unfortunate don’t
get a chance to present my motion …
originally because what happens when you don’t get that chances
people start saying things but what you why you why
you raise that’s what your intention was what your plan
was frankly I wanted to have this discussion I wanted
to make sure that we had this discussion and believe
me if this motion is defeated on only one of
one or two people voting in favor of it that
is fine and I’m not offended by anything anyone said
terms of me doing things at the last moment all
of that stuff I don’t like it but that’s the
way it goes let me say this … I haven’t
been happy with the budget process I don’t think anybody
should should miss understand that and for those of you
are here I voted against the rate every single year
I have also in the course of doing that
voted against items that were then baked into the budget
that if they want in the budget now the rate
would be much lower so when people say I’m coming
at the last minute was suggestions on the budget it
gives the impression I’ve never said anything about the budget
that I’ve never opposed things that when in the budget
that I’ve never found reductions for the budget and I
have so when people say well you just come at
the last minute trying to do something that you really
haven’t worked on before I I I take that pretty
seriously because it’s not true
no maybe said tell you why I bought this motion
when the last year frankly I wanted to see what
the reaction of where we’re going so I think I
the budget process from the point of view of the
councillor me is very difficult it’s very difficult to to
go through and I’m sure some of P. appreciated today
and say well I like to go here in the
budget and find savings because frankly
I would be like me saying to somebody out here
… you’re charged with the murder go do it yourself
and figure out how to do it this is not
the budget is that the largely staff driven budget and
with all due respect staff should at some point bill
to say here’s an area that we think you can
get some savings and in fact last year you found
point for
it went down from three point two to two point
eight through the good work that you did
I wasn’t asking anybody start slashing and burning I was
looking for some approach
we’re leading 8 the tax rate so
I take this very serious and I took bringing this
motion very seriously
and it was somewhat dismissed by some of my colleagues
and I and that’s fine that’s fine
but I I thought about the proper way to do
this how do you do this
how do you get us to the point where we’re
getting every value we can out of the budget and
if at the end of the day staff came in
we couldn’t accept that we couldn’t accept it but I
think it’s an important message also to the people of
the city of London
when we entered his those budget process in the budget
is presented to council please do not think that the
council is going to make these large changes to the
budget to reduce the right it’s just not going to
happen because of the in my view the structure of
the budget process
the numbers we get at the BET beginning are very
often the numbers at the
and I think we’ve got to have a more robust
process for councillor involvement in the budget going forward
why did I pick two point two three some people
think I just … two point four I just picked
it out of my hat or something
the projected inflation rate for next year’s two point two
three percent I was prepared to go higher than that
so I went to two point four there’s the mystery
so that’s why I came up with that number
he’s also keep in mind that our union employees were
given a raise raises under two percent
most of the year so they’re getting raises lesson work
increasing the tax rate
I think that’s somewhat town so I didn’t do this
to be difficult I did this because I sincerely believe
that we need a better process for preparing our budget
and we also need people in the city of London
to understand a lot from my point of view the
lack of ability of council is at the table to
make changes to the budget
I was councillor squire some up … the motion is
moved and seconded we can open up for voting no
closing the vote the motion is lost 5 to 10
okay colleagues that
councillor Lewis … so just so we know where we’re
still on the review of the operating budget would complete
the amendments were discussing kind of the operating budget now
has service
thank you Mister chair and … if if through you
I could ask the question … before I … before
the motion … CS I council has advised that …
three hundred thousand … might be enough to get us
back to two point seven and I just wonder through
you … to staff if … that number … seems
accurate to them
councillor said think there’s do you want to round down
to two point seventy wanna get to two point seven
exactly even because with the magic budget spreadsheet we can
pretty much tell you anything you’d like to know …
so if you want to be specific on what your
goal is two point seven even Mister chair
through the chair $250000
Uruguay for money for that Turner $58000
thank you Mister chair than I’d like to put for
the motion that … two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
up from the assessment growth … be applied to the
twenty nineteen budget to reduce the overall tax rate to
two point seven percent
that’s moved by councillor Lewis I’m willing to second that
… discussion five councillor helmer and councillor van Meerbergen are
a sorry I
van Holst elevens mixed up
I was just trying to second that but you you
took care of that so I think that’s a reasonable
idea and I I do think it’s really important that
we protect the majority of that carry forward for the
multi year budget
we haven’t seen what that looks like yet
it might not start with the 2
we’re gonna need that room when we’re dealing with the
multi year budget I would advise councillors to be pretty
cautious with how much use this year
cancer analyst
thank you very much I’m just warning if this isn’t
a motion better made a little later and later in
the process
someone I know there’s and at least one other motion
coming forward … so that’s my that’s my point perhaps
it should be referred to a little later on in
we can if our goal is to hit two point
seven … may we may be a little off of
it event what but we can certainly deal with that
in the operating budget portion are you saying that there
you you’re all you want to move your … your
item first
… okay so we’re at committee councillor Lewis your goal
is to lower to two point seven counts of animals
would like to have a debate on something he submitted
to us before I’m willing to withdraw and then put
it back on the floor at the appropriate time if
if the mover is … because I think that there
may be a how council goes you may need a
little bit more to get to the number you’re looking
certainly Mister chair I’m prepared to withdraw and and re
introduce it after we’ve dealt with … councillor van Holst’s
up motion Alicia you can do that … so I’ll
go to councillor van Holst who circulated a motion …
for consideration in
the operating budget and I will let him
introduce that and then a look and see if there’s
a seconder for and I would prefer if you could
reach a motion so the public knows exactly what we’re
talking about
okay thank you very much there’s so
a number parts here
perhaps they could be dealt with individually annoy a seconder
is for someone and maybe for others … but part
a says that … the the B. I. A.’s which
are expected to assist with the administration of community improvement
plan incentives provided twenty five thousand dollars per year to
help cover the cost of that labor it being noting
that the cost would be greater or city staff required
to do the work so
Mister chair when I’m when I’m this is suggesting here
is that sort of off the top of the community
and proven planned funding … we provide the the B.
I. A.’s that will do most of the like work
with with this amount because it does require a great
deal of work … I know on … Hamilton road
we’ve got a community improvement plan happening I’ve heard this
… issue come up from other B. I. A.’s as
well is when … the businesses are hoping to
get help with the improvement loans and grants they go
through the BA that helps with the paperwork there is
a there’s a lot of effort there and it it
saves staff a great deal of time where we just
to where I just to take the request myself from
business owner and and ask the staff to do it
that would mean staff time … which is … which
would be at a premium so I think there’s there’s
a cost savings here … and maybe I can through
you to our staff just ask how many
how many cancer I’d I would prefer you not ask
questions as you’re introducing a motion if you some options
okay so I think that’s that’s the motion we probably
don’t have many … there’s not many in this case
so it’s it’s a small figure but I think it
would to
them get the job done that we’re really hoping will
happen out there okay so the motion is to provide
be a is which are conducting the administration of community
prove a plan incentives twenty five thousand dollars per year
to help cover the cost of that labor … is
there a seconder for that
councillor Lewis seconded I have councillor Lehman who wants to
make is
… chair I have to recuse myself because I am
a member of be a a downtown

councillor Hopkins you had your
yes thank you Mister chair if I could just make
a comment …
I understand where councillor van Holst is coming from because
I have heard
from community … from the community their concerns and costs
when it comes to be I a
I. A.’s but I’m a little weary at this motion
… for two reasons I think it’s really important that
we get some kind of a report back from staff
on … this strategy on how these B. I. A.’s
are funded I I would like to know a little
bit more about … before deciding on spending money how
… they were funded and how their supported …
the second part of the motion be I have a
little bit of a concern there just the council is
not going to be on the floor … still just
AA yeah … and then may I ask are are
B. and C. off the floor then
I believe the council’s intention is to deal with these
matters separately is probably gonna make subsequent motions after we
deal with a depending on the result of a okay
then I’ll just stick with the a and as much
as I hear the concerns I think it is important
that we need to get some kind of reporting back
from staff on how of the I. A.’s are supported
and funded before we move forward with … paying for
councillor Lewis
thank you Mister chair and I actually … I was
wanting second this motion so we could have that discussion
because I think the councillor Hopkins raises some excellent points
of course I sit on … … the B. I
a for the Argyle area as council’s appointee … and
a night … just … at the last … a
planning committee sent an update … from that the I
a but it would be good to have … updates
from those be a sin and with twenty five thousand
… it and perhaps councillor van Holst will answer that
… I’m not sure where … that particular number was
drawn from I don’t know whether that amount would work
for every the I a obviously there each in different
areas but I think it’s it’s valuable that we have
this discussion because we are asking them to do some
work on our community improvement plans and we need to
to insure that in asking them to undertake that work
we’re helping them with the resources they need to for
Phillip because the small business owners are an important part
of the economic driver the community
other speakers on this councillor helmer
thank you through the chair and press these are questions
that councillor and also wanted to get to an is
introducing the motion but through the chair to our staff
could you clarify which be ISIS with apply to it’s
referred to as you know be a that are delivering
incentive programs and I guess through the chair to councillor
in almost is is he suggesting that this is an
increase in the C. I. P. be a budget under
economic prosperity like there’s an existing budget line for that
is he talking about this being on top of that
or is he telling the reallocating what’s already there …
all of which is allocated as far as I’m aware
the answer on which the eyes this would apply to
our engaging work on community improvement plans
on this chair a in general the premise for B.
I. A.’s is that … there’s a B. I. area
that is established … there’s a budget that is created
based on the activities that they want to … participate
in and then a levy is applied … to those
in that be I area that … collects the funds
to finance the budget
… the committee improvement plans provide tools for the V.
I. A.’s to use in order to attract new business
and development within those areas … there see eye peas
I’ve gotta ms o’hagan up in the gallery to correct
me if I’m wrong but … downtown oldies village
also and Hamilton wrote
I don’t see you’re shaking your head so it’s like
yes she’s not a …
the question the councillor helmer had about how what what
this money was was it … and it has been
to the … fund that you mentioned or was it
something on top of that
this should be no increase to any any funding the
the community improvement plans there is a budget for those
things … and it’s possible that none of that budget
is spent if if the the programs aren’t applied for
so what I’m hoping is that this which is in
response to the … councillor Lewis was a half half
full time … and one have fifteen
about the time it might take for them to to
to deal with one of those … to just take
that off of off of the the top of that
program so in our … communing proven time programs where
… there might be grants for
building residential buildings or
I mean things up to code there’s money for those
projects and this is just a tiny amount
off the top of the under that budget to help
to it minister the budget itself some items I don’t
see that this would have any impact on the …
on the budget on on our budget what it would
mean is that … it if it was the all
these Phil
and they Hamilton road and … downtown that fall into
this category there’d be seventy five thousand dollars less in
that that overall budget
so councillor be clear you’re not looking to increase the
rate you’re looking to reallocate existing funding
from within for this purpose yes
that’s not quite clear in the motion would like us
to clarify that
okay I’m sure there isn’t there isn’t a
the source of funding is in in there but that
could be that could be clarified
maybe on a staff widely in the absence of clear
finance our staff might just tack it on to the
rate when we be talking about numbers in the spreadsheet
so it seems to me like I that was on
my interpretation when I first read your motion I can’t
think that’s by councillor numbers asking the question is to
get exactly at what exactly are you doing and where
you taking this money from for not talking better rate
increase so if that’s the case I think that direction
should be pretty clear okay the motion and
thank you so with the … Mike question through you
to staff than is the
the name of that fund we should put on on
here sticking medium proven
fund is that is that the name of it
we we’re trying to identify the source of financing that
counts of animals once in the motion I just wanna
make sure our staff can assist with making sure that
he gets it right
through the chair … I believe for the council was
referring to is we do contributions to the reserve fund
to find R. C. I. peas so that you we
would not be supportive of reducing the contribution of CAP’s
because that’s based on what we anticipate the cost of
the program I believe but the councillor is trying to
do is to find additional administrative costs for the B.
I. A.’s would which would be an additional charge to
the levy
search advertising that the most appropriate place to finance this
is from the levy not necessarily from the
okay has there budgeting the pool based on the needs
of the programs
all right and what is the pool
what is the amount in that reserve funds
so through the chair the the balance in the reserve
funds to find the C. I. P. loans and grants
is approximately three points
two SO three plus another to almost five million dollars
but that’s the balance of the reserve funds that’s when
time finding to find our initiatives over the top so
there wouldn’t be money there to find ongoing costs to
support programs unless you I’d have to look at that
over a period of time
okay well thank you for so I’d like to move
for this … for this year as a as a
one time funding my … my philosophy is that one
can funding
which would be a rate increase is what you’re saying
see one of that from that fund my philosophy is
that community improvement plan should pay for community improvement plans
and … that that this is the as part of
the administrative work to take care of those were downloading
this to the B. I. A.’s it makes them less
able to do the other work they’re open to do
so I think it’s an appropriate thing … and what
… what expand the work that are B. I. A.’s
are are able to do so that that would be
that would be my motion … I’d like to do
this for twenty nineteen we can certainly look at something
different for the … for the multi year budget and
… to councillor Hopkins perhaps she’s be interested in seconding
my … part see when it comes up which is
actually looking at how we from those things but okay
I think we’re at it we understand … what you’re
direction is … I wanna look to the second to
see if a seconder still okay with this context
the service chair just in my glasses to build the
read what’s on the screen now
it’s not there it’s as councillor van was articulated if
he’s so I love I will recap cancer and also
looking to get twenty five thousand dollars to … B.
I. A.’s to support the work that they’re doing on
community improvement plans are staff determine that there is a
community improvement plan fun which is funded with money they
for funny and that’s fine it’s reserve fund it’s one
time there they have not advised to take it from
that fund councillor van Holst would like to move a
motion to do that anyways
in this process and we are just for clarification we’re
talking about four B. I. A.’s that are currently involved
in active … see eye peas … so would be
drawing down one hundred thousand dollars from a fund that
has five million dollars approximately in it at this time
that’s my understanding I am not the treasure though so
so the draw on the fine if there were four
B. I. A.’s working on the Canadian province lands would
be one hundred thousand dollars correct
I don’t miss part on
chair before we got here from a smartphone … just
one area of further clarify … therefore active see eye
peas but I don’t believe that there’s actually a be
I a and so I think we’re talking about three
B. I. A.’s not for Mister Fleming cancer that
I can thank you Mr that’s correct and
our goal has a D. I a but does not
have committee improvement plan
okay your get
I’m good seconding … now that I’m understand we’re during
seventy five thousand from the five million dollar reserve one
time offer administrative costs this year
this year
mayor older you’re next on the list thank you chair
3 to staff
the city received formal requests from the … three B.
I. A.’s who are involved in ministries European sentence …
for this decision funding turn in like a
through the chair now the city has not that I’m
aware of
six question to staff have any of the the I
AC do not administer C. I. P. …

… applications has a indicating interest in wanting to be
able to pursue that
and if they meeting for a request through
through staff for the
through the chair we have not received a request I
don’t know if five Mister Fleming knows of any other
a request potentially
miss chair there’s been some ongoing conversations is there always
are … with our golf … there’s … Hyde Park
… there’s land best these are areas that either have
yeah a or B. eyes that are forming potentially in
in progress … that have talked about tension for incentives
but … at this point I would say that …
there’s been any discussion about the administration of of …
those committee approved plans another piece of point out is
that the city has staff in in my area that
to deal with … the committee improvement plans the actual
receipt of the applications the processing of those applications …
the development of the agreements for loans for examples to
gonna charge grants … … rebates those sorts of things
so that’s all running through our office and we have
staff that do that we were collaborative Lee with the
D. I as I said the way I would look
at is these are tools that they have available to
them to … allow them to attract businesses new business
new development and economic activity
I have a missile Hagen do I think wants to
add to the answer as well up in the gallery
… three Mister chair can you hear me OK …
so as part of the … next … strategic plan
for your strategic plan we have had some discussions with
the B. I a informing strategies … and they have
… identified some desire for finding as part of the
future multi year budget … nobody’s made any formal request
as part of this budget process but there has been
some discussions about the process of contributing to the next
multi year budget
thank you for help get you on this matter thank
you so what seems to me is that were offering
… a preferred or preferential treatment … for those B.
A.’s the currently provide … support and assistance the I.
P. applications … verses those PA’s who do not currently
… … provide that service because they don’t have the
staffing or are mindful of the workloads involved in doing
it and have not yet applied so it feels like
a disproportionate …
focus … and what strikes me is that since we’ve
not received any formal applications from either the current be
I a … the I. A.’s to … provide the
administrative support for C. I. P. incentives … nor have
we formally at it sounds like received any application save
except the potential of multi year budget plan it strikes
me as I’m not exactly sure where we’re …
count the cancers direction is coming from … and and
you may wish to explain it but … I mean
press will what this is doing is really focusing on
one particular be a at but it’s not my place
to say
but it it almost feels to me that they should
be it feels …
that if this was a a process we want to
consider does it not make more sense to do it
in a thoughtful progressive manner through the multi year budget
it just strikes me as more planned will actually get
a sense of that of if you’re interested I presume
they would apply but we have we have a motion
that’s that’s on the floor that is … specific to
three by age that we’ve not received formal request to
support so that’s why I’m
but I’m sure not challenging or … the motives of
the of the of the of the motion I’m just
curious why … it’s it’s it’s come in at this
time of from BJ’s for on behalf of B. A.’s
who haven’t requested it and if that cigarettes on my
part … accepted I just I’m confused … by the
motion as it stands in terms of the placement of
it in this particular meeting
I just need a second
I need to go to our staff on a piece
of information related to our ability actually found something in
this way because they have some information on the bylaw
the conferences find … miss Barbara
through the chair where just taking a left world that
discussion continue to look at the bylaws specifically the committee
improvements … programs that the to reserve funds one is
for the grants one is for the loan program the
bylaws are very very specific to the actual cost of
the incentives and … not stopping to support that so
we would need to look at another source that …
would be one time in nature and … the community
investment reserve fund would probably be the appropriate source of
councillors to pursue this
so … that’s not really … … gonna be allowed
that motion … councillor van Holst thank you Mister chairman
I was going to suggest that … I could …
withdraw this motion to a later time and I can
and look to … the B. I. A.’s who had
discussion with and it’s my understanding that … so any
more than one B. I. as hoping for that …
and I think my my motion was thought phone progressive
… I think it’s appropriate for this term but …
happy to to communicate them and and with them and
come forward with … with with the confirmation that this
would be …
the appropriate and it’s certainly certainly desired so that that’s
easier this can come at … just prior to the
… are passing the budget I’m I’m sure
so you’re well you’re dry the motion that and …
I you’re not making a replacement motion correct
no I can thank you so that’s it I know
I’ll I’ll come again with this and and speak to
the B. I. A.’s and and get a request thank
you sounds good
are you finished them
like to put to show I
the show I could see on the on the on
the table first …
that’s is that this is that a strategy to assist
the growth of new and small be eyeing speak considered
in the in the twenty twenty four multi year budget
I do have be that I’m gonna come forward …
with but … councillor minus it make a suggestion on
see that a strategy to assist with the growth of
small … new in small BA’s be considered in the
twenty twenty twenty twenty four multi year budget bring Asian
a strategic planning process seems like a pretty strategic direction
to pursue which would that be funded by the multi
year budget I’m not sure it’s related to the two
thousand and nineteen operating budget that we’re working on right
now … I I I would suggest perhaps you could
take it through the strategic planning process first and …
maybe that would be the more appropriate spot for it
then this part of the operating budget for twenty nineteen
okay that is funding it did seem that the two
motions that I made in a and B. were …
kind of a stop gap and so that’s why this
was put in here just to just to give us
some forward for direction but I I take your comments
let me put being on the … on the board
… that … and this … that Hamilton road be
given alone to fifty thousand dollars for twenty nineteen and
it being noted as a for comedy lowest Sussman area
with a four point nine percent of the levy tolling
only seventy thousand dollars … so my area and I
know that we provide allowances for other … be any
such as all these and I’m looking for something similar
here if
so … that the him to road be a be
given an allowance of fifty thousand dollars for twenty nineteen
to twenty nineteen if being noted that this is a
for profit or Lewis has been area with four point
nine percent to levy of only seventy thousand dollars and
are you suggesting this come for the tax base or
some sort of one time source just so we’re clear
on what you’re asking
this is a one time source so and again for
this for this issue okay have you spoken to the
treasure about an appropriate source and that you’d like to
add to your motion

well one I think perhaps the … the community economic
development of the fun that we have I would I
I would ask staff if if they have another or
branches asking what they believe would be the most appropriate
resource for for this amount of money … maybe I
should know to the staff that the the purpose here
is to allow that to the B. I a to
make …
investments in the beautification of the area which is why
we’ve done the C. I. P. and the B. I
a our goal was to make that delegate way of
a more attractive entrance to the city so this is
to cover some projects that was in a lot of
money left over and that’s the purpose of
I ask a staff the best source for a project
like that misspoke on do you have suggested source of
financing so the council can suggest a motion
through the chair … off the top of my head
the committee invested reserve fund would accommodate that it’s a
one time source or we could take that back and
identify something later it’s it’s a small amount
okay cancer so you wanna make the motion you can
love them take it back and identify something later or
identify the committee investors are find and then we’ll see
there’s a seconder for your motion a comfortable with that
yes that’s good night I hope there’s a seconder the
mayor has indicated that he’ll second that
thanks very much in the
if I may I think of
as I just wanted to remind our or tell our
new do colleagues that … the reason there was a
lot of intention put on Hamilton road last term …
for the community proven plan the streetscape master plan and
… and a BA is that when you Google directions
to downtown London from the east it takes you right
along Hamilton wrote presently it’s not are are are pretty
is gateway and so these funds would basically be used
by the B. I a for projects to beautify that
area and … make it something that all of London
can be proud of
mayor holder
thank you first just for you to staff if I
may … I wonder staff could again clarify … if
this were to pass … again just reconfirm where the
funds would to emanate from and the impact it would
have this any on … the twenty nineteen budget or
was it should be from a reserve fund place
as for about through the chair I I think the
community investment reserve fund it it’s a and not a
small amount it’s there’s a hundred thousand dollars within that
find currently so it’s a one time draw would be
appropriate to come from there and it would not have
an impact on the tax levy
is there
if I may speak to … my a second of
this a motion of that this is a London’s news
BA smallest region … they’ve got some … some big
start up opportunities I know they would have gone in
with eyes wide open knowing that the … that the
levy … for such a low centenary with that would
to be impactful but … I did it for those
who know this is the tree trunk … tour region
and I think they … … they’ve got great hopes
for the for this here to be a major …
notwithstanding what they recognize their region area to be but
I I think they’ve got a great story to tell
and … and and and so the reason I’m comfortable
with providing this … one time use to help give
them the boost that they need I’m mindful of president
a mindful of a number of things … but I
think with in this case we really want to give
them a hand up to get them the right start
I mean literally they’re very brand new this may have
come in a bit last minute to may not have
had the level of … focusing organization terms going through
the treasury determine some of these things in advance but
it doesn’t mean that’s not worthy at doesn’t mean that
it may not be worthy of support on a one
time basis and I area and I would hope to
councillors would look at that look at this area that
we really want to … to … to assist in
beautifying at that make it the important part of London
that it has been in the past and you want
to bring it back again thank you councillor Hopkins and
councillor Lewis
thank you … Mister chairman and thank you to the
mayor for his comments I
I am just trying to understand the … motion that
we have in front of this and and from what
I understand this motion is saying that we are approving
fifty thousand dollars from the community improvement find here through
this budgeting process
am I correct
it’s the community investment reserve fund which is the council
directed fun which is funded through surplus dollars … and
… yes we would be recommended to council it’s approval
that this meetings … report goes to council on February
thank you so I have a a slight difficulty not
to …
… support the Hamilton road be I a my concerns
are that we are setting a precedent here and I
have …
I have a … a concern about that … it’s
… something that we’re going to … probably see other
B. I. A.’s come forward here if we approve this
here and I would rather see referring it to the
community investment fund for that disc
I I don’t know how the community investment fund works
but is it something that …
… I’m struggling with with setting this president I just
have a concern about that I appreciate the comments and
the worthy cause but I know there’s a lot of
B. I. A.’s also be I. R. I. A.’s that
have not been … that may be coming down the
the road as well and I’m wondering if there’s another
way we can do this to support the Hamilton road
but … I’m just open to … the debate here
thank you councillor Lewis
thank you Mister chair and it’s my understanding that the
community investment fund is actually fun that’s available for council’s
discretion and and use … it’s a fun where there’s
a boat … eight hundred thousand dollars … currently …
in the accounts … for use and … when councillor
van Holst actually … circulated this … last night I
I was reluctant to … support because be because I’m
mindful of the fact that the Arielle be a also
similarly stretched out … it’s the IT compared to other
areas of the city of fairly low assessment area …
however also mindful of the fact that when the are
gonna be a was first starting out council help that
was someone time funding there to … it’s not unusual
and I’m also cognizant of the fact that for the
last year … the businesses in the Hamilton road P.
I. a have had to struggle … and get by
well Hamilton road was under significant … infrastructure renewal …
and it’s been a difficult time for them … and
yet they have carried on … they had another unveiling
of a tree trunk carving not that long ago those
tree trunk coverings are a draw to those who are
visiting the city they’ve been a wonderful addition and so
this is a relatively small amounts and … given the
mayor’s comments he’s he’s convinced me that this is an
investment worth making
thank you that is us the speakers list on this
councillor Turner
thank you Sir really quickly of just a quick question
on the councillor van Holst brought forward some funding requests
recently to pack I can’t remember what that was and
what the amount was but … perhaps so that we
could be reminded of what that is
you mean funding for the him to road be I
was your recent finding the product through pack for the
him to road be I a
councillor van Holst from finance in the question … I
I was
hoping to bring forward a policy to deal with the
the the B. I. A.’s in in general and in
and through that and just the sense the with Rick
do that with to that the the committee said you’re
better off just going to the multi year or to
the budget process and then we can look in the
multi year for for some kind of a policy but
the because when FBI starts out they may start out
small and and they may grow the council just asking
whether or not planning committee approved money for the Hamilton
road P. I know there was no there’s no approval
that that basically came to get clarification councillor Turner
I thank you I I recall a forgivable loan and
that … was brought for I can’t recall the names
trying to search for but I can’t find it right
now it looks like councillor helmer mine councillor helmer
back in March two thousand and eighteen we serve our
source of financing which is probably why it’s triggering for
councillor Turner happens to cover an estimated budget of a
hundred eighteen thousand for both two thousand eighteen in two
thousand and nineteen so that the for you alone portions
of the incentive programs could be provided Hamilton wrote the
source of financing was a can investors are fun
yes my apologies … concert with a couple weeks ago
I came with a be a perfect site that’s what
I thought you were to that was the answer he
was going for it that’s good councillor Turner
I think it’s so my point is we’ve been there
we’ve been doing this we’ve been trying to provide as
much consent and support to … specially the Hamilton road
be I a and I don’t think it’s property at
this time so I would put that down
now I’ve exhausted the speakers list
so if there are only for the speakers we can
open this for councillor van Holst I thank you very
much I just just like to ask the question to
staff … was not the the the all these POA
provided a loans there too I believe that was a
B. I am with very small levy staff provided …
a substantial loans to help them and … I just
want to ask that question to as it is an
answer to councillor Hopkins who was concerned this might be
setting a precedent I believe I was just following a
Mister Fleming
this chair … the the oldies Philadelphia a does receive
… … an annual some and … that’s historical they
have a very small … be I area relative to
the very large commute treatment plan area that they are
… supporting … mo we have had conversations with them
… over the last couple years for the desire to
have them expand their business improvement area which … they’ve
been doing over the course of the past year and
… conversations subsequently on whether that amount continues or not
is it meant that something that’s expected
there’s your answer I will go to the next week
or less if you get
okay councillor helmer
enter that this was specific requests them
and I think as the be a and Hamilton road
is getting started up … I supported the decision we
made last time around the hundred eighteen thousand for the
for global loans I think this kind of one time
finding is that is appropriate at the committee investors are
fun seems like I’m program source of financing for that
and I appreciate the cancer and also is quite persistent
and bringing forward … request to help out in Hamilton
road and he’s made a lot of progress frankly and
driving things forward in that area and … you know
I think the be a is especially the smaller ones
especially ones are there getting started as cancer Lewis mentioned
you know in our got started up and they were
present funding when Hyde Park even started up others alone
at that end up being repaid and … to the
to the city Adelphia start up in in in the
case of the all these feel bad there’s been ongoing
city funding to cover exactly what and the city planners
talking about in all these for a long time and
I think some core funding that is provided to help
deliver those incentive programs whether it’s through some kind of
system that were developed in the future or not it
is important for some of the V. A.’s depending on
what they’re doing I’m not necessarily need to buy all
be a some of the Hyde Park needs a community
group plan I don’t know that they need anything that
related to the center programs like that they’re they’re doing
something different up there and … no give me a
second of different priorities … so this one this particular
thing for him to remain with the support it and
… I would encourage my colleagues to support it to
for twenty nineteen I think it’s quite reasonable
councillor Salih
briefly Mr chair I’m supporting this … I think it
makes sense I’ll just say that you know just you
know want to my part in helping supporting he’s London
he’s London sometimes feels if they’d part heard I see
all but … they have some good advocacy and we’ve
seen it recently we’ve seen in the past and glad
you’re the mayor’s bring for this motion with council run
also … there you go east on
okay if for no other speakers which I don’t see
any we will open this motion for voting
closing the vote the motion is passed tend to four
with one absent
so I’m gonna go councillors only if no other colleagues
have operating budget amendments to the gonna propose
not that I can hold you to that but I
would like to
now we can go to councillor councillor Turner first
I’m sorry a with the respect my apologies … councillor
Lewis just with respect three of us have to be
at another board meeting orientation in thirty minutes … so
I was hoping that we could look for that hard
stop around four o’clock which is
now but … depending on how long now councillor Lewis’s
motion to yes I I don’t know how much debate
to repeat this would be the last piece of the
operating budget amendments which would be nice to complete the
operating budget amendments on the first day … I could
do my best if we can continue …
if council okay with that okay all right
councillor Lewis you got emotional move I said I’d seconded
let’s put that back on the floor thank you chair
so all I will put back on the floor …
that two hundred and fifty thousand dollars of assessment growth
… revenues be applied to the twenty nineteen budget to
reduce the overall tax rates to two point seven percent
and our staff might just give you a slightly different
number on that absolutely open to their input their
thank you through the chair if you want to point
seven zero on the dot it will be three hundred
and thirty thousand dollars
thank you that say … significant rounding … addition but
… we will go with that number
and I’m having a second that’s still a so now
debate discussion using that portion of assessment growth bring the
tax rate back down to two point seven
any discussion
seeing none
if this
need a second make sure the motion is written properly
councillor van Meerbergen are you looking to comment on this
yeah I’m I’m certainly supportive of of the direction it’s
the amount … it’s quite frankly too puny it’s not
… I’d like to do a little recap again so
we have a two point six three million surplus and
assessment growth
after things have been covered office … basically was discussed
okay skip
yes that’s correct is also a slide in the AM
yeah okay so we have the two point six three
and Mister chairman heard you correctly … we could go
as high as one point three five … I I’m
simply suggesting we had another six hundred seventy dollars two
ways we could do this we can either with the
movers amenable
to amend it or else we can focus on and
do another vote after
or you can have an amendment to the mountain and
the amendment could have a seconder and then a debate
… I don’t see that is contrary see that is
changing the amount so that is the other way to
go about that
so you want to move … what but what to
move forward
I would I would move the 0
dollars from the two point six three that still leaves
one point six three
in reserve
it would you like a treasured articulate what that does
to the tax rate first sure okay and then a
look for a seconder
through the chair so if we were to use a
million dollars of the access assessment growth funding that would
bring the two point three twenty nineteen tax levy increase
to two point six percent and the average down to
two point seven percent
okay so is there a seconder to amended councillor Lewis’s
motion to be instead of three hundred thirty thousand dollars
assessment growth a million dollars of assessment growth
councillor Lehman
… that’s movement seconded discussion on the amendment and so
this is an amendment to councillor Lewis is motion
councillor Lewis
thank you Mister chair and and I will just say
that the reason why I … went with three hundred
and thirty … I’m mindful of the fact that the
multi year budget is coming and the value of keeping
as much of the assessment growth available for the items
that that we’re gonna be bringing forward in the strategic
plan … as early as Monday … to have funding
available for some of those … ideas that many of
us will have some
issues championing and others of us will be quite prepared
champion … the other thing is I’m mindful of …
councillor Morgan’s comments about one point three five of that
two point six is surplus from the previous year …
and I don’t want to touch … at all this
year’s and I would be not comfortable with anything that
exceeded half of the previous years us so that’s why
I chose the number that would bring us to two
point seven think it keeps us at least where we
started and I think it it shows the residents of
London that … we are serious about trying to keep
costs in control without jeopardizing our flexibility in the multi
year budget
others because I know you moved it I’ll come back
to you respect
okay I don’t see any other speakers at this time
council remember anyone speak on this
I just wanted to ask staff if there’s any …
for councillor any kind of thinking as to what would
be looking at
… for for around the next budget then we get
into the four years one in other words for this
particular here
there’s a lot of construction going on out there is
a lot of development are we looking
for another surplus in all reality
through the chair so we we generally try to estimate
that to based on some of the changes that come
in during the year … typically we always look approximately
around one percent to be conservative because we don’t know
during the year based on some of the appeals or
conversions are things that might be to bring that down
the in there we go contrary to the new building
because it is in that number so changes that appeals
things like that too could bring that down so were
we forecast generally one percent to we’ve certainly seen a
great deal of increase in the building sector there is
some correlation and there is a delay so are we’re
anticipating at this point to that we could be approximately
a little bit higher than one is very very challenging
to look at this time so we do monitor that
throughout the year as we have the assessment roll come
in to look at what the changes are to see
if there might be any flags that might indicate a
potentially lower figure but it’s very challenging we’ve tried regression
analysis to look at correlation between building permits when they
might be issued and when the assessment comes then and
there there roughly correlated but there’s very there’s a lot
of variation that could occur in may throw our numbers
off from something that is an anticipated so I firstly
there isn’t a lot we trying to do a little
bit more work to see if we can get our
better better assessment of that however it’s still challenging so
it’s something we don’t like to anticipate to but I
think the odds are good we may have slightly higher
than one percent at this point
for anybody who debtor the thoroughness of our staff they
just in case he they did a regression analysis on
the correlation between … assessing growth and … construction so
that’s repressive

at their other discussions we have the amendment on the
floor to change one or three thirty to one million
is there any other discussion
seeing none we’ll open the amendment for voting
councillor Peloza councillor cai bother
if it’s not clear to fix said let’s just do
it verbally and enter it
at work
we we have them now
closing the vote the motion is lost 5 to 10
so the amendment is lost back to the main motion
in the motion is an amount of three hundred and
thirty … thousand dollars from assessment growth to lower the
tax rate … down to two point seven
if there are in this none I will open this
for voting
closing the vote the motion is passed 12 to 3
so colleagues that back includes four point one … and
I did say that I would check in and around
for to see if … colleagues wanted to stop refer
the remainder the business to our back update on Monday
as I indicated there are at least one or two
colleagues who do need to leave shortly for … commitments
at … for thirty
I think the best way to handle this is to
look to see if there is interest in … making
a motion to adjourn isn’t
… recess recess until it scheduled at nine thirty AM
Monday but we can certainly say ten if that works
better for folks
so so I I would look for someone to make
that motion yes … Mister chair I’d be happy to
make … that motion to recess until Monday at …
ten o’clock ten o’clock but any morning ten seconder accounts
van Meerbergen

no discussion so with this vote at all those in
favour recessing into land
any post
so that carries thank you for a thank your staff
for their work today in assisting us through the discussion


London Ontario Strategic Priorities and Policy Committee 24th Jan 2019
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